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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

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Hello Miss Allie Darlin'! :unsure:

 

I know they do at Chabot. But do you think that their average shooters shoot more accurately no matter what the stage scenario is? More conscious of a 10 second penalty might improve one decission to shoot better.

 

Hugs,

Paniolo "who didn't intentionally try to stir the pot" Cowboy

Oh yes you did. :lol:

 

No, I don't think so. Hubby and I still placed about the same in the pack at SASS matches as at Chabot. I never gave the penalty a thought. It was always me, my sights, and the targets.

 

;)

 

Allie

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
Are there reliable statistics available to support this claim?

 

Miss Allie Mo :unsure:

 

You noticed that I just let it pass! I'm in enough trouble around here! ;)

 

But darlin, I don't believe it either. :lol:

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It wouldn't change anything in the way I play the game. It would add on average 5 to 10 seconds to my total time. And since it would most likely add 5 to 10 seconds to most other folks total time, the standings would still be pretty close to where they are now. I suppose that some folks in the middle that shoot faster than me, but miss more, might end up below me due to misses, and that would most like depress them greatly.

 

"Geez, I got beat by Pulp, I might as well quit this game." :unsure:

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Appently, you did not read my entire post. Let me expand.

 

Shooting accurately is not difficult. It can be learned very easily. Sight alignment, trigger pull, grip, it is dead easy. I have taught a young man who never touched a gun how to shoot accurately in a single session. He was bright and listened with his head. He was a friend of my son.

 

What is much more difficult is to learn to shoot fast. It requires something I have not found in myself. I have watched my son do it. It has to do with the willingness to fail, among many other things. You have to exceed your abilities till your abilities match your speed and then you have to be able to challenge those abilitites again and again.

 

The logical end of the expansion of a larger miss penalty is to allow a win only for a clean match. The fastest would still win but there would be a severe impediment to newbies or even average learning what they need to be fast.

 

More than a decade in the game and several decades of shooting have taught me that hitting the target is child's play. Doing it fast, under pressure, damn, that is tough.

 

I wish more people got that it.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

BJT,

 

With all due respect pard, who wins is not what I'm looking for. Of course the fastest good shooters are going to top the list, but that's a small percentage of an entire club. I'm curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club but making people better shooters.

 

To me, being a good shooter is not just being fast. To me, being able to be more accurate fast is what makes a good shooter in this sport. Your son is a testiment to that. He is fast, but more importantly he is very accurate while being fast. I've seen him shoot, and what amazes me is not just how fast he is ... but more so how he doesn't miss.

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Miss Allie Mo :unsure:

 

You noticed that I just let it pass! I'm in enough trouble around here! :lol:

 

But darlin, I don't believe it either. ;)

Howdy Pard,

 

That was more than I could do. Too "much water under the bridge" I guess. I'm thinking apples and oranges.

 

I've been around a while and watched Bud since he was "knee high to a brass picker." He wouldn't be where he is today had he not "let 'er rip" and let the misses happen. Now he's accurate and fast. I can be accurate. I doubt I will ever be fast.

 

;)

 

Allie

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Are there reliable statistics available to support this claim?

 

Nope.

Statistical analysis would require comparative processes and tasks far beyond my feeble capabilities.

 

But take a look at other shooting disciplines - look at who is shooting - it does not look like a SASS match.

The other shooting disciplines have not made succesful inroads in attracting significant numbers of non gun interested spouses, children, elderly, etc. to their shoots.

We have, simply because of the way we have set up and then marketed our experience.

 

But if we really want to create a model to determine average skill sets and compare them, albeit roughly.

We can look at a significant match and determine the "average" score.

We then take out the components that do not have the same levels of representation at other disciplines.

Remove the childrens scores - Remove most of the elderly scores - Remove most of the the ladies scores.

 

With those scores removed from the whole - re determine your "average" score - does it improve or worsen?

 

It improves.

If those shooters are not present at other disciplines and they are present at ours...Which group has the higher "average" skill set?

 

I am not saying that we do not have shooters within cowboy fully as skilled as those in any other discipline.

Simple examples like Jesse Abate and Randi Rogers would lay that claim to waste.

What I simply said was that other disciplines are sometimes focused on "Improving" their shooters (to the detriment of entertaining them) and that tone is frustrating to some shooters and chases them away.

 

When you cause to quit - either by difficulty, frustration or lack of fun, the bottom 40% of your shooters - you do improve your average.

And that is exactly what increasing penalties would do.

But that is out of character for our game and should be avoided at all costs.

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BJT,

 

With all due respect pard, who wins is not what I'm looking for. Of course the fastest good shooters are going to top the list, but that's a small percentage of an entire club. I'm curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club but making people better shooters.

 

To me, being a good shooter is not just being fast. To me, being able to be more accurate fast is what makes a good shooter in this sport. Your son is a testiment to that. He is fast, but more importantly he is very accurate while being fast. I've seen him shoot, and what amazes me is not just how fast he is ... but more so how he doesn't miss.

 

God I hate this philosophy...SASS IS NOT ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE BETTER SHOOTERS!!!!!!!!! If someone goes out a shoots real fast and misses a lot then the only thing to ask is: Did ya have fun?

 

SASS is NOT the MILITARY!!!!!!

 

SASS is NOT a Shooting Academy!!!!!!

 

Why do you think that's what SASS is about?

 

:unsure:

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<snip>I'm curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club but making people better shooters.

To me, being a good shooter is not just being fast. To me, being able to be more accurate fast is what makes a good shooter in this sport.

<snip>

The answer is NO. Emphatically so. I've shot at clubs and shoots that have used 10 second misses and up to 30 seconds procedurals. It just spreads out the results in a total time match, making it just that much more difficult to overcome either penalty. And in a RP match, if you leave 8 or 9 shots in your rifle, now you might have the entire field in front of you in rankings. Talk about a "blow-up"!

 

Doc is 100% correct, the development of accuracy is strictly a result of more practice and the mental fortitude to resist over-running your speed/accuracy quotient. A 10 second miss penalty may "SEEM" like it would make one want to do that, but... unless you have the desire to improve, it ain't gonna happen, regardless.

 

One of our club's founders was also on the Board of OWSA and a huge proponent of 10 seconds as a miss penalty. We used to regularly have rather fierce arguments, God love 'im!

 

Phantum is right. Your accuracy is your own issue, not mine, not his, not SASS's or anyone elses. There ain't any points given in main matches for accuracy. Side matches... that can be a different story!

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
The answer is NO. Emphatically so. I've shot at clubs and shoots that have used 10 second misses and up to 30 seconds procedurals. It just spreads out the results in a total time match, making it just that much more difficult to overcome either penalty. And in a RP match, if you leave 8 or 9 shots in your rifle, now you might have the entire field in front of you in rankings. Talk about a "blow-up"!

 

By what you're saying about how Total Time can absorb it easier, aren't you now adding one more negative to look at when you consider Rank Points at a Big Match. Something I believe you are in favor of.

 

Doc is 100% correct, the development of accuracy is strictly a result of more practice and the mental fortitude to resist over-running your speed/accuracy quotient. A 10 second miss penalty may "SEEM" like it would make one want to do that, but... unless you have the desire to improve, it ain't gonna happen, regardless.

 

I've already addressed Doc's points. As for your opinion, I don't know if you're right at all. A 10 second miss penalty may "MAKE" a person "TRY" to shoot more accurately.

 

One of our club's founders was also on the Board of OWSA and a huge proponent of 10 seconds as a miss penalty. We used to regularly have rather fierce arguments, God love 'im!

 

Phantum is right. Your accuracy is your own issue, not mine, not his, not SASS's or anyone elses. There ain't any points given in main matches for accuracy. Side matches... that can be a different story!

 

Did Phantom say my accuracy is my own issue, not yours, not his, not SASS's or anyone elses? I didn't read that if he did.

 

Let Phantom talk for himself, he's a Champion Shooter in this Game and he's plenty opinionated. I listen to his views on things all the time. And by God, even when I don't agree with him I still respect him. That doesn't mean he's right all the time. It just means that I still respect what he has to say.

 

As for you telling me that there ain't any points given in main matches for accuracy? You're wrong, actually there is in the respect that a Clean Match Award is usually given out at most matches that I know of.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
God I hate this philosophy...SASS IS NOT ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE BETTER SHOOTERS!!!!!!!!! If someone goes out a shoots real fast and misses a lot then the only thing to ask is: Did ya have fun?

 

SASS is NOT the MILITARY!!!!!!

 

SASS is NOT a Shooting Academy!!!!!!

 

Why do you think that's what SASS is about?

 

:unsure:

 

WHAT PHILOSOPHY IS THAT?

 

DID I say that SASS is about making people better shooters? Did I? If so, please show me where? Because by God if I SAID it than I want credit for it.

 

You said, "If someone goes out a shoots real fast and misses a lot then the only thing to ask is: Did ya have fun?"

 

Well by God at least we can agree about that. Not bad considering you once told me SASS IS ALL ABOUT COMPETITON.

 

The difference is that the school that I came from said that competition was HITS NOT MISSES!

 

And by the way, DID I ever ever say SASS is the MILITARY?????? NOT HARDLY! Not even bloody close to it.

 

DID I say it was a Shooting Academy???? No, I didn't.

 

DID I say that that is what I think SASS is about? Show me where I said that that is what SASS is about? I didn't.

 

People join shooting clubs to shoot, I would hope that as people shoot more and more SASS matches that they become faster more accurate shooters. What the heck is so wrong with being a better shooter? In SASS that means speed and accuracy on the clock.

 

Explain to me where that's a BAD THING?

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
Nope.

Statistical analysis would require comparative processes and tasks far beyond my feeble capabilities.

 

But take a look at other shooting disciplines - look at who is shooting - it does not look like a SASS match.

The other shooting disciplines have not made succesful inroads in attracting significant numbers of non gun interested spouses, children, elderly, etc. to their shoots.

We have, simply because of the way we have set up and then marketed our experience.

 

But if we really want to create a model to determine average skill sets and compare them, albeit roughly.

We can look at a significant match and determine the "average" score.

We then take out the components that do not have the same levels of representation at other disciplines.

Remove the childrens scores - Remove most of the elderly scores - Remove most of the the ladies scores.

 

With those scores removed from the whole - re determine your "average" score - does it improve or worsen?

 

It improves.

If those shooters are not present at other disciplines and they are present at ours...Which group has the higher "average" skill set?

 

I am not saying that we do not have shooters within cowboy fully as skilled as those in any other discipline.

Simple examples like Jesse Abate and Randi Rogers would lay that claim to waste.

What I simply said was that other disciplines are sometimes focused on "Improving" their shooters (to the detriment of entertaining them) and that tone is frustrating to some shooters and chases them away.

 

When you cause to quit - either by difficulty, frustration or lack of fun, the bottom 40% of your shooters - you do improve your average.

And that is exactly what increasing penalties would do.

But that is out of character for our game and should be avoided at all costs.

 

I agree with both you and Doc that increasing penalties would increase frustration and drive down interest. I stated that I agree with you both on that.

 

I KNOW this game is about speed and accuracy. All I was asking is, would people try to be more accurate if there was a stiffer penalty hanging over their heads?

 

Hey, the seatbelt laws came into effect and I hated it so I didn't where my seatbelts. Then when I heard that there is now a $200 fine for not wearing it, the possibility of a stiffer penalty gave me more incentive to wear my seatbelt.

 

After I read what BJT said, I started wonder what sort of incentive would a 10 second penalty per miss have on people shooting a match?

 

This isn't brain surgery. I was just wondering what effect a 10 second penalty for a miss would have. What would be the outcome?

 

Well you, and Doc, and others have given me your answers by saying that it would probably frustrate folks and make everyone lose interest in shooting.

 

One guy even said it would KILL SASS.

 

If that's all it would take, we may be in trouble.

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Guest diablo slim shootist

My opinion on the 10 sec miss is it does not make me more accurate -our club is one of the few around that

offers both SASS and NCOWS and i shoot them both -i miss more in an NCOWS shoot because the targets

are farther out than SASS -sometimes way out (50yrds)or more. but having shot SASS for 10yrs its hard to

slow down and do this type of percision shooting for me personaly. what has happened is that i had to pick

one over the other to try to be good at and i picked SASS If i want to shoot with my pards that shoot NCOWS

i pick some guns that i dont normaly shoot and put my mind in a "i Dont care frame of mind"But the 10 & 20 second

pealties bug me and im to hard on myself and do not enjoy the match as much. Just my 2 cents from both sides

of the coin. Diablo :unsure:

o

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Im with Jefro, put on the match and I will come if I can afford it AND the wife stops trying to get a life of her own that includes me! Thats what has become so irritating is the 'Its all about me' attitude. Perhaps I am to optimistic but I am one who says bull s#!? every time someone hollers that what another person wants will kill the sport or "do that and I will take my ball and go home". As I said earlier, some are lucky enuff to have several styles of shooting formats available in SASS, within reasonable driving distance. As far as who dies by offering only one venue to please one group, well both die a little while some of us only see the angle we are looking for. I have seen much shooter polarization between clubs and I think when it happens, in our case it is about fifty/fifty for those shooters who are not willing to compromise. Dang shame fokes git their panties in a knot over how to have fun!

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The one thing that was touched upon above but not emphasized is the "Frustration Factor".

I don't go to cowboy matches to miss. I go to shoot as fast as I can and hit most of what I shoot at. I know full well that on a normal SASS range that I will have some misses because I'm going too fastfor my skill level. I still leave with a feeling of success because I scored well for me and I did the best I could. The only time the frustration factor comes into play is when a gun fails me or when a stage is written to encourage Ps and misses.

To take my normal score and double the penalty I get for my misses would frustrate me no end. I know that the fast shooters are being hurt as well but their skill and, dare I say, practice regimens will cause them to be hurt less than I.

Man, then throw rank scoring on top of this and I would never get out of the bottom 1/4.

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I'm wondering if you are not laboring under a false assumption.

Your premise appears to be based on the idea that shooters are not adequately trying to be accurate.

 

The vast majority of folks I know are trying NOT to miss now. There are a very small number that do not care, but I don't believe changing the penalty would make much difference to them.

 

Watch the average shooter and see how they react to a miss. Most will be bothered and some very bothered. Some more experienced have learned to accept them since being upset by misses normally leads to more of them. And the latter is probably the key. Many folks WOULD be strongly encouraged to not miss and think so hard about not missing that they would miss MORE.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As others have explained, over the years, many very bright and dedicated shooters and match directors pondered the same question you ask. They experimented with the 5 and 10 second miss penalties and found that the 5 second penalty works better than the 10 second penalty. For most, the matter has been settled for over 10 years. Of course it is only natural for folks to ask the question just as these folks in the past have done. So it is good to ask questions, but to also understand the history and lessons learned.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
I'm wondering if you are not laboring under a false assumption.

Your premise appears to be based on the idea that shooters are not adequately trying to be accurate.

 

The vast majority of folks I know are trying NOT to miss now. There are a very small number that do not care, but I don't believe changing the penalty would make much difference to them.

 

Watch the average shooter and see how they react to a miss. Most will be bothered and some very bothered. Some more experienced have learned to accept them since being upset by misses normally leads to more of them. And the latter is probably the key. Many folks WOULD be strongly encouraged to not miss and think so hard about not missing that they would miss MORE.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As others have explained, over the years, many very bright and dedicated shooters and match directors pondered the same question you ask. They experimented with the 5 and 10 second miss penalties and found that the 5 second penalty works better than the 10 second penalty. For most, the matter has been settled for over 10 years. Of course it is only natural for folks to ask the question just as these folks in the past have done. So it is good to ask questions, but to also understand the history and lessons learned.

 

Marauder my friend,

 

Honestly, I don't think I'm under a false assumption. I think shooters are trying to be accurate. But I think that that is secondary to them trying to be fast.

 

I've seen some shooters shot very fast and miss a lot over the course of an entire match. It seems that speed is the only concern. Because of that, I was just curious if a stiffer penalty would make them slow down a hair and shoot better in so far as being a little more conscious of their accuracy.

 

Since it's a game of speed and accuracy, I hear folks talking a lot about the speed end of the game but very little about the accuracy end of it.

 

But pard, you're very right about how the average shooter reacts to a miss. You're probably very right that an extra 5 seconds per miss would probably only add to that frustration ... especially if they're just a newbie learning the ropes.

 

I don't believe that an extra 5 seconds per miss would KILL SASS, but thinking more about it I can see that it wouldn't be good for morale.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
The one thing that was touched upon above but not emphasized is the "Frustration Factor".

I don't go to cowboy matches to miss. I go to shoot as fast as I can and hit most of what I shoot at. I know full well that on a normal SASS range that I will have some misses because I'm going too fastfor my skill level. I still leave with a feeling of success because I scored well for me and I did the best I could. The only time the frustration factor comes into play is when a gun fails me or when a stage is written to encourage Ps and misses.

To take my normal score and double the penalty I get for my misses would frustrate me no end. I know that the fast shooters are being hurt as well but their skill and, dare I say, practice regimens will cause them to be hurt less than I.

Man, then throw rank scoring on top of this and I would never get out of the bottom 1/4.

 

Noz,

 

Before Doc Shapiro brought it up, I didn't even think about the "Frustration Factor".

 

You said, "The only time the frustration factor comes into play is when a gun fails me or when a stage is written to encourage Ps and misses." Me too pard.

 

And yes, the added score even if it's added throughout everyone shooting the match would frustrate more folks.

 

Let's not even say what Rank Points scoring would do with such a situation, I'm in enough trouble with folks over asking this question. :unsure:

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....My first thought was that everyone who I've ever talked with all agree that this game is strictly about speed.

 

So are is BJT saying that if SASS increases the miss penalty to say 10 seconds per miss that that would slow the game down??

 

Why if "the game is speed and accuracy"? And if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game? What would be the effect of increasing a Miss to a 10 seconds penalty instead of the 5 seconds it is now? .....

 

Why is it people want to "slow the game down" ?!? What is so wrong with shooters who are fast? Why is it I HAVE to be more accurate rather than accepting the fact that I'm a fallible shooter and even though I do try to shoot clean every stage, I often get ahead of myself and whoops!

 

Ten second miss penalties would be no different than smaller targets, farther targets etc, or stages that are so complicated that they require written instructions to follow while shooting.

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Why is it people want to "slow the game down" ?!? What is so wrong with shooters who are fast? Why is it I HAVE to be more accurate rather than accepting the fact that I'm a fallible shooter and even though I do try to shoot clean every stage, I often get ahead of myself and whoops!

 

Ten second miss penalties would be no different than smaller targets, farther targets etc, or stages that are so complicated that they require written instructions to follow while shooting.

____________________

I agree, in this world of fantasy shooting replicating cowboys shooting cowboys, the fast win, the slow/dead loose.

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Yes, that's what I'm saying. I can't help but wonder if misses were upped to 10 seconds would folks learn to shoot more accurately?

 

Maybe it's my experience in the Marine Corps, but to me hits count. This thing called "close misses" don't mean squat.

 

:unsure:

 

I wuz gonna' read the whole thread but I just had to stop here and reply. The "fast" folks can shoot plenty accurate too don’t be fooled into thinking they can’t. Many folks think they just blast away and can't hit accurately as well.....I can't speak for everyone but as soon as my sight gets on steel I'll pull the trigger. There is no need to shoot dead center on a 24 x 24 inch piece of steel in a timed match.....unless you like to waste time or don’t have the confidence to run the edges. Likewise, if you put an 8 x 8 inch bonus target way out for the pistol....I'll slow down and hit that to because that is what is required to score well in the stage. You only jump as high as necessary to clear the bar....no more no less. In SASS it pays to shoot fast so you should practice doing that.....if you want to change the rules and do 10 sec penalties etc.....the same folks will win but he game will be slower and less fun to watch & play as well.

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<snip>

 

I've seen some shooters shot very fast and miss a lot over the course of an entire match. It seems that speed is the only concern. Because of that, I was just curious if a stiffer penalty would make them slow down a hair and shoot better in so far as being a little more conscious of their accuracy.

 

<snip>

 

AH, now I understand!

 

Here's the thing. One of the tidbits that I teach is that if you want to shoot fast and accurately, you have to train your eyes to see fast. A good way to do it is at monthly matches. Shoot too fast for your eyes and miss a lot. You instinctively try to see what's going on, but the muscles in your eyes are conditioned to seeing that quickly and so you end up with misses. The interesting part of this is that you are training your eyes to see faster. Eventually, you'll see what's going on at that pace and stop missing. Then it's time to kick up the pace and do it again.

 

In other words, it's a training technique.

 

Another possibility is that some folks just enjoy shooting fast and don't care so much about the misses.

 

You won't change their mind by upping the miss penalty.

 

Doc

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Accuracy is not the issue. Many shooters can shoot accurately. I can shoot accurately. What is much, much harder is to hit targets at a high rate of speed reliably. If you want to see the level of the game increased, find a way to encourage the speed.

 

The way to do that exists today. Look at shotgun shooting. Most shotgun targets we see today are knockdowns that may be re-engaged. Has anyone thought about what that means? The miss penalty for those targets is how fast a shooter can reload and fire. If you can cyle a round out in one second, your miss penalty is one second. If it takes you four seconds to cycle a round, your miss penalty is four times higher. There is some insentive to shoot faster.

 

The funny thing is that most folks that whine about SASS being a speed game, focus on the revolver where the miss penalty is fixed at an expensive five seconds and completely ignore the shotgun.

 

Accuracy is cheap. Fast accuracy takes practice and talent.

 

Cheers,

BJT

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WHAT PHILOSOPHY IS THAT? The Philosophy that matches should be teach us to be better shooters

 

DID I say that SASS is about making people better shooters? Did I? If so, please show me where? Because by God if I SAID it than I want credit for it. Please slow down and read more accurately. I said that you're trying to bring it (making shooters "Better"), into the SASS game.

 

You said, "If someone goes out a shoots real fast and misses a lot then the only thing to ask is: Did ya have fun?"

 

Well by God at least we can agree about that. Not bad considering you once told me SASS IS ALL ABOUT COMPETITON. BULLSH*T!!!!!!! You're being very manipulative with my words here...just short of lying. I'm sure I've said on many occasions that CAS is a Competion...or something to that affect. But I can assure you that SASS in it's entirty is about more then just competion...They have the convention...dress-up events...socials...etc...duh!

 

The difference is that the school that I came from said that competition was HITS NOT MISSES! You went to a crappy school then.

 

And by the way, DID I ever ever say SASS is the MILITARY?????? NOT HARDLY! Not even bloody close to it. Nope...but your words obviously show your bias towards that school of thought.

 

DID I say it was a Shooting Academy???? No, I didn't. Nope...but again you don't have to use these exact words. An academy is a school of sorts...where one is taught things...and you want SASS to teach folks to be "Better" shooters...therefore, you're indirectly advocating that SASS contain attributes of a Shooting Academy.

 

DID I say that that is what I think SASS is about? Show me where I said that that is what SASS is about? I didn't. Wow...this is getting tiring. Do you really think that you have to use very specific words to make a general point? Come on...yer insulting my dog's intellegence. Oy...ok...here we go again. You want to make people better shooters...I said that that is not what SASS is about...hold on...my head is starting to hurt...

 

People join shooting clubs to shoot, I would hope that as people shoot more and more SASS matches that they become faster more accurate shooters. What the heck is so wrong with being a better shooter? In SASS that means speed and accuracy on the clock. Let folks become as good or as bad a shooter as THEY want...not what you think they should be.

 

Explain to me where that's a BAD THING? It's a bad thing when you try and formulate a process that forces your idea of importance onto others...that seem to be having fun with things just the way they are...but for some unknown reason...them havin fun just irks you.

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The answer is NO. Emphatically so. I've shot at clubs and shoots that have used 10 second misses and up to 30 seconds procedurals. It just spreads out the results in a total time match, making it just that much more difficult to overcome either penalty. And in a RP match, if you leave 8 or 9 shots in your rifle, now you might have the entire field in front of you in rankings. Talk about a "blow-up"!

By what you're saying about how Total Time can absorb it easier, aren't you now adding one more negative to look at when you consider Rank Points at a Big Match. Something I believe you are in favor of.

Actually, the point I tried to make was that it has an equally dreadful effect under either scoring method. Isn't it more difficult to make up 10 seconds than it is 5? You're right, I believe that the effect in an RP match with 10 second miss penalties and longer procedural penalties is more akin to a SDQ. While the discussion of 10 second & 5 second misses may have components of TT vs RP, they are separate. As one is a matter of degree and the other is of philosophy. Again, others see the differences differently... as we're all individuals and play this game for our individual reasons.
Doc is 100% correct, the development of accuracy is strictly a result of more practice and the mental fortitude to resist over-running your speed/accuracy quotient. A 10 second miss penalty may "SEEM" like it would make one want to do that, but... unless you have the desire to improve, it ain't gonna happen, regardless.
I've already addressed Doc's points. As for your opinion, I don't know if you're right at all. A 10 second miss penalty may "MAKE" a person "TRY" to shoot more accurately.
Like I said, I believe it sure seems as tho it would... but if I take the results our shooters had, they still seemed to average the same number of misses in a match. Well, actually, the better shooters did... the shooters out of the top runners seemed to to increase misses.
One of our club's founders was also on the Board of OWSA and a huge proponent of 10 seconds as a miss penalty. We used to regularly have rather fierce arguments, God love 'im!

 

Phantum is right. Your accuracy is your own issue, not mine, not his, not SASS's or anyone elses. There ain't any points given in main matches for accuracy. Side matches... that can be a different story!

Did Phantom say my accuracy is my own issue, not yours, not his, not SASS's or anyone elses? I didn't read that if he did.

 

Let Phantom talk for himself, he's a Champion Shooter in this Game and he's plenty opinionated. I listen to his views on things all the time. And by God, even when I don't agree with him I still respect him. That doesn't mean he's right all the time. It just means that I still respect what he has to say.

 

As for you telling me that there ain't any points given in main matches for accuracy? You're wrong, actually there is in the respect that a Clean Match Award is usually given out at most matches that I know of.

Your'e right I paraphrased what I took to be Phantom's meaning. I'm sure as there is a Great Match Director in the Sky, that Phantom doesn't care one whit whether I miss once in a match or 50 times... As long as I don't cause him to enjoy his game one bit less. And, likewise, I feel the same. Personally, I love to watch folks shot to the best of their ability. Heck, I even like doin' it myself. Back in the late '80s and early '90s when I strived to improve my shooting, was competitive to a fault, and was collecting plaques and trophies, I still did it for me. They are nice, they remind me that once upon a time I "could". But, now, it's far more about the enjoyment I see around me. That transistion wasn't an easy one for me, nor is it I suspect for anyone. But, what brings me enjoyment nowadays is when I see folks that are smilin' at the end of each match regardless of how they finished. There'll always be that individual that ain't, and very possibly CAN'T be satisfied, the selfsame folks that wouldn't be pleased if ya hung 'em with a new rope... All I'll say is, "au reviore, hope they find love and happiness in the next thing they try."

 

And yes, I am right, your clean match award does not count to the final standing of the day. I've earned them, still didn't win! A clean stage is still a highlight of my match day.

 

IMO, the game hasn't changed one damn bit... however, my view of it has changed dramatically. From the "most fun I ever had with my clothes on" to "aye Gawd, another match day". And, very, very slowly, I'm finding a new awareness and enjoyment in matches again. Mostly, what I experience at a match nowadays is the lack of many, many old, old friends that no longer play or, are here on this big ball we call home, to play. But, I'm meeting new pards, new folks to be impressed by, new folks to introduce and bring a few smiles to. And while for several years, I've struggled with my own enjoyment, and what I read here on the Wire, at times actually discouraged me from attending matches.

 

And actually, Phantom is a big part of why my view of it has changed. For in meeting him, I again met someone that strives for faster shooting, better performances from what he did prior, and still finds the time to enjoy ALL the aspects of the match; the ambience and what his fellow shooters bring to the table. I am absolutely certain there are many others out there, as I've had the opportunity meet quite a few, all exhibiting enthusiasm, charm and cheerfulness at their chosen sport. I just hope that those three things are contagious, and I can catch it again.

 

I'll end by just saying, don't take my "we tried that and it didn't work" as anything, but just that. It ain't any reflection of the person that suggested it. In fact, the person that makes suggestions, might just happen upon the one that will make the game better than it is today. Hell, they just might make it better that it was "back in the day", if you listen to those that think it's changed to something less than it was. (Which by the way, I don't). The "Good Ol' Days", are the ones coming up. As an example, heck, we used to only use ONE sixgun... if using TWO ain't an improvement, I don't what is.</SPAN>

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

All great points. Thank you all for your posts.

 

I can see now how it would not do anything positive and probably only have negatives attached to it.

 

I admitt it was a bad idea.

 

Oh well, live and learn!

 

 

:unsure:

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...hitting the target is child's play. Doing it fast, under pressure, damn, that is tough.

 

I wish more people got that it.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

So true...at any distance you might ever see in CAS.

 

I'm reminded of being at matches and handing out Gamer Cards. Occassionally, I'll encounter someone who doesn't get that it's a joke and will proclaim, "I'M NOT A GAMER!" to which my response is, "Have you ever missed a target? I want to hear your excuse."

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195

if misses go from 5 seconds to 10 seconds my scores are going to suck even more than they do now

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195
disclaimer

 

I have only read the first post, and no more

 

why not make it 20 or 30 seconds, same difference :wacko::wacko::wacko:

 

you will penalize the poorest shooters, not the fast ones,,,,,,geeeeese

what he said. BTW I LOVE to watch the fast shooters, and I cheer them on, in fact I have never been involved in a competition before where you root for everyone (well I do at least) like we do in SASS.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875
disclaimer

 

I have only read the first post, and no more

 

why not make it 20 or 30 seconds, same difference :wacko::wacko::wacko:

 

you will penalize the poorest shooters, not the fast ones,,,,,,geeeeese

 

Mike, you should have read the entire thread.

 

I believe it would affect more than just "the poorest shooters." It would affect everyone including the fast shooters who are now capable making up their misses on other stages.

 

geeeeeeeeeeeese

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Mike, you should have read the entire thread.

 

I believe it would affect more than just "the poorest shooters." It would affect everyone including the fast shooters who are now capable making up their misses on other stages.

 

geeeeeeeeeeeese

 

dude

I waz egg-zat-er-ating to prove a point

 

 

geeese

 

besides the placings would still be the same

and more boring to watch..............................thats the real deal :wacko:

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