What If?

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

So that I didn't Hijack a thread, I'm curious about a What If sort of question.

 

After reading this post from BJT:

 

TJB is quite correct, providing that top end shooters would require more than 5 seconds to hit a target. I am sure that targets could be put that far out but they never have and really never will.

 

Even four inch targets at 15 yards would draw splits of less than 2 seconds. With two seconds to hit, no one shoots fast enough to tolerate misses.

 

As long as the miss penalty exceeds the reliable hit time, the game is speed and accuracy, not one or the other.

 

That should be obvious to the most casual observer. Given that the split times of the fastest shooters are less than 1 second, the idea that accuracy does not count is laughable.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

My first thought was that everyone who I've ever talked with all agree that this game is strictly about speed.

 

So are is BJT saying that if SASS increases the miss penalty to say 10 seconds per miss that that would slow the game down??

 

Why if "the game is speed and accuracy"? And if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game? What would be the effect of increasing a Miss to a 10 seconds penalty instead of the 5 seconds it is now?

 

Let's not go crazy here thinking that its actually happening, this is only a what if question I had to something that BJT said on another thread.

 

What do you think?

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

I don't understand your logic. BJT stated that "as long as the miss penalty exceeds the reliable hit time, the game is speed and accuracy, not one or the other." Doesn't the miss penalty already exceed the reliable hit time? If it does, then how would INCREASING the miss penalty improve anything?

 

This has been stated many times before: the fast shooters will always be the fast shooters and the slow shooters will always be the slow shooters. All you are doing is penalizing people more. Very few places of finish would change. I've shot a match using 10-second penalties--OWSA at the NRA Whittington Center. It was a fun match, but I much prefer 5-second penalty matches. The 10-second penalty match was an accuracy match. Period. Not a speed and accuracy match.

 

Steeldust Dan

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

So that I didn't Hijack a thread, I'm curious about a What If sort of question.

 

After reading this post from BJT:

 

 

 

My first thought was that everyone who I've ever talked with all agree that this game is strictly about speed.

 

So are is BJT saying that if SASS increases the miss penalty to say 10 seconds per miss that that would slow the game down??

 

Why if "the game is speed and accuracy"? And if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game? What would be the effect of increasing a Miss to a 10 seconds penalty instead of the 5 seconds it is now?

 

Let's not go crazy here thinking that its actually happening, this is only a what if question I had to something that BJT said on another thread.

 

What do you think?

 

A whole lot of shooters might give up the game. A club in our state did that for a few years and went from one of the most successful clubs to the least successful judged by the quantity of shooters at monthly matches. When the club went back to SASS rules (i.e. 5 seconds for a miss) and SASS recommended distances/target sizes the shooters came flocking back and they now get typically 75 to 100 shooters twice per month.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

NCOWS HAS 10 SECOND MISS PENALTIES IT TAKES ALL DAY TO SHOOT A MATCH AND

IT HAS 20 SECOND PROCEDURALS.

[Crazy Mingo]

Heee Haaa.. The truth of the matter is the fast shooters are not prone to misses.. I'm a slower shooter and I miss.. Just makes me look TWICE as Bad..

 

Heee Haaa .. the only way to slow the fast shooters down is to increase your own speed..

 

Heee Haaa Crazy Mingo

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Unlike many/some I like for many variables to be available in the game. The best way to acheive this will frequently require some travel. In Charleston it is a fast shooters game, which Im not, and is a lot of fun because our fearless leader writes them that way. The one thing he believes in is giving the shooter lot of choices and this is fun for the shooter. A little further inland we have a totally different style of shooting in Columbia, SC. These matches frequently involve more active targets and sometimes a bit tougher target or two gets thrown our way. Very different and vary fun also. I have not been getting to Aynor as often as I would like but these boys frequently put their own spin on a match that makes it different from the others and they do like shooting their shotguns! In the end, I really hope the variuos matches do not all become clones of each other, as the old saying goes "Variety is the spice of life!".

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

My question would be, wud yu like new rope or old?

 

cheyenne

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

I don't understand your logic. BJT stated that "as long as the miss penalty exceeds the reliable hit time, the game is speed and accuracy, not one or the other." Doesn't the miss penalty already exceed the reliable hit time? If it does, then how would INCREASING the miss penalty improve anything? That's what I was asking? What would it improve if anything?

 

This has been stated many times before: the fast shooters will always be the fast shooters and the slow shooters will always be the slow shooters. All you are doing is penalizing people more. Very few places of finish would change. I've shot a match using 10-second penalties--OWSA at the NRA Whittington Center. It was a fun match, but I much prefer 5-second penalty matches. The 10-second penalty match was an accuracy match. Period. Not a speed and accuracy match.

 

Steeldust Dan

 

You answered the question with your story about the OWSA ar the NRA Whittington Center. As you said, "The 10-second penalty match was an accuracy match. Period."

 

It would slow the match down for more hits.

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

When I first started shooting SASS in 1994, we had 10 sec. misses and 20 sec. procedures. Also shot with one handgun, not two, rifle & shotgun.

And as a matter of fact Texas was one of the last area's to go to 5 sec. misses, been there, done that.

Try again.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Unlike many/some I like for many variables to be available in the game. The best way to acheive this will frequently require some travel. In Charleston it is a fast shooters game, which Im not, and is a lot of fun because our fearless leader writes them that way. The one thing he believes in is giving the shooter lot of choices and this is fun for the shooter. A little further inland we have a totally different style of shooting in Columbia, SC. These matches frequently involve more active targets and sometimes a bit tougher target or two gets thrown our way. Very different and vary fun also. I have not been getting to Aynor as often as I would like but these boys frequently put their own spin on a match that makes it different from the others and they do like shooting their shotguns! In the end, I really hope the variuos matches do not all become clones of each other, as the old saying goes "Variety is the spice of life!".

 

Absolutely right! Variety is what I like to shoot because it makes it fun.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Trying to KILL SASS??????

Just realize that at best we shoot at targets 16"x16" which are ALOT smaller than a Person!! Most "Misses" would have hit the opponent somewhere!!

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

Yep.....winter is upon us

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

When I first started shooting SASS in 1994, we had 10 sec. misses and 20 sec. procedures. Also shot with one handgun, not two, rifle & shotgun.

And as a matter of fact Texas was one of the last area's to go to 5 sec. misses, been there, done that.

Try again.

 

Was the result more accurate shooters back then?

 

You have me curious pard, what was the reason that Texas took so long to go to a 5 second miss?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Paniolo,

 

The match at Chabot (non SASS) has ten second misses. The same folks win as when there are five second misses.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

Was the result more accurate shooters back then?

 

You have me curious pard, what was the reason that Texas took so long to go to a 5 second miss?

 

Not any more accurate.

Texas, what can I say, just the way it was.

[BJT]

What Allie wrote below is the most astute observation that could be made........

 

Once one shooter goes as fast as he/she can hit, it does not matter how it is scored, everyone that wants to be in contention, better go as fast as they can hit.

The guy that runs at 90% doesn't have much of a chance.

 

The 10 second miss will do one thing. It will discourage shooters from breaking out of the "safe zone", effectively retarding growth in the sport.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Hi Paniolo,

 

The match at Chabot (non SASS) has ten second misses. The same folks win as when there are five second misses.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Trying to KILL SASS??????

Just realize that at best we shoot at targets 16"x16" which are ALOT smaller than a Person!! Most "Misses" would have hit the opponent somewhere!!

 

Jack, I'm not advocating anything. It's called conversation.

 

It's a What If question. Like what if you shoot at that 16"x16" target at say 40 yards instead of 4 feet in front of you? What if targets were close as 4 feet but only 4" round?

 

Would any of that make you a better shooter? Would it still be fun? Would it still be fun for the small perscentage of shooters that go really fast?

 

How would some shooters like it IF you did some change in some way that is different than what is being done now? It's all just conversation.

 

We just had days and days of heated arguements over Rank Point with a lot of people calling for Rank Points to be scraped ... Since RP has been with SASS for a long time, why is it that no one asked "Trying to KILL SASS?"

 

I give SASS a little more credit than you do. A simple What If Question ain't going to KILL SASS.

[Doc Shapiro]

Was the result more accurate shooters back then?

 

<snip>

 

 

Before we continue the discussion regarding 10 second misses, perhaps it would be helpful if you were to expand on this.

 

Are you suggesting that if misses were upped to 10 seconds folks would learn to shoot more accurately?

 

If so, it's a red herring. Folks shoot as accurately as their training and physical capabilities provide. If folks want to be more accurate, more time must be put into practice and training. I could provide plenty of anecdotal evidence to back this up too.

 

Doc

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

What Allie wrote below is the most astute observation that could be made........

 

Once one shooter goes as fast as he/she can hit, it does not matter how it is scored, everyone that wants to be in contention, better go as fast as they can hit.

The guy that runs at 90% doesn't have much of a chance.

 

The 10 second miss will do one thing. It will discourage shooters from breaking out of the "safe zone", effectively retarding growth in the sport.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

BJT,

 

With all due respect pard, who wins is not what I'm looking for. Of course the fastest good shooters are going to top the list, but that's a small percentage of an entire club. I'm curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club but making people better shooters.

 

To me, being a good shooter is not just being fast. To me, being able to be more accurate fast is what makes a good shooter in this sport. Your son is a testiment to that. He is fast, but more importantly he is very accurate while being fast. I've seen him shoot, and what amazes me is not just how fast he is ... but more so how he doesn't miss.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Howdy,

I'm not sure if this fits in your thread but here goes, I use to shoot at a Range that was Old school far and small targets, well it became no fun so I quit going. Well I had lunch with a gent today that use to shoot at that same club, he also quit going but anyway he looked at the last score sheet posted for that club, he figured out that if you went to that shoot and just shot as fast as you can and missed all the targets you would have won the match, the moral of the story is far away targets doesn't equal accurate shooting and that requardless of the time assesed for penality it's all the same at the end, and like Allie said the same people for the most part will still be on top.

 

KK

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Before we continue the discussion regarding 10 second misses, perhaps it would be helpful if you were to expand on this.

 

Are you suggesting that if misses were upped to 10 seconds folks would learn to shoot more accurately?

 

If so, it's a red herring. Folks shoot as accurately as their training and physical capabilities provide. If folks want to be more accurate, more time must be put into practice and training. I could provide plenty of anecdotal evidence to back this up too.

 

Doc

 

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I can't help but wonder if misses were upped to 10 seconds would folks learn to shoot more accurately?

 

Maybe it's my experience in the Marine Corps, but to me hits count. This thing called "close misses" don't mean squat.

 

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Howdy,

I'm not sure if this fits in your thread but here goes, I use to shoot at a Range that was Old school far and small targets, well it became no fun so I quit going. Well I had lunch with a gent today that use to shoot at that same club, he also quit going but anyway he looked at the last score sheet posted for that club, he figured out that if you went to that shoot and just shot as fast as you can and missed all the targets you would have won the match, the moral of the story is far away targets doesn't equal accurate shooting and that requardless of the time assesed for penality it's all the same at the end, and like Allie said the same people for the most part will still be on top.

 

KK

 

Kiowa pard,

 

What if that range had close big targets? Would you expect people to miss so much?

 

I see people shooting at big close targets and missing. So I was wondering what if they had to a stiffer penalty for those misses? What would it do?

 

There is no question that the Top Shooter are the Top Shooter, and a lot of our threads are about the Top Shooters. But forget about the Top Shooters for a minute and ask yourself about the middle of the road shooters that make up the majority of SASS.

 

And ask yourself this question, what if we only had big close targets, would you expect people to miss so much?

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Hi Paniolo,

 

The match at Chabot (non SASS) has ten second misses. The same folks win as when there are five second misses.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Hello Miss Allie Darlin'!

 

I know they do at Chabot. But do you think that their average shooters shoot more accurately no matter what the stage scenario is? More conscious of a 10 second penalty might improve one decission to shoot better.

 

Hugs,

Paniolo "who didn't intentionally try to stir the pot" Cowboy

[Doc Shapiro]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I can't help but wonder if misses were upped to 10 seconds would folks learn to shoot more accurately?

 

Maybe it's my experience in the Marine Corps, but to me hits count.

 

To be honest, I don't think the vast majority of folks care to put in the time necessary to improve their marksmanship. They're out at the matches to have a good time and see their friends. It's not a shooting match they're going to, it's a social event with a shooting match on the side.

 

What I think will end up happening (and past club experiences bear this out), folks will get frustrated and not come back. Everyone likes to see their name high up on the score card, even if they don't claim to. Increasing the penalty for a miss will take away some of that entertainment.

 

After all, clubs are in the entertainment business. Not in the 'marksmanship' business.

 

Those that want to get better will practice and shoot well. Those that don't, won't. It's pretty simple.

 

I argued with myself and a few others about this very topic (is the purpose of the club to make shooters better or to provide a venue for a social event?) several years ago. It's a venue for a social event, for good or bad.

 

Always enjoy discussions with you.

 

Doc

[Snake River Clay SASS #34984]

Maybe it's my experience in the Marine Corps, but to me hits count. This thing called "close misses" don't mean squat.

 

 

They do with hand grenades!

[Matthew Duncan]

"What would be the effect of increasing a Miss to 10 seconds?"

 

 

Most cowpokes times would increase.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

To be honest, I don't think the vast majority of folks care to put in the time necessary to improve their marksmanship. They're out at the matches to have a good time and see their friends. It's not a shooting match they're going to, it's a social event with a shooting match on the side.

 

What I think will end up happening (and past club experiences bear this out), folks will get frustrated and not come back. Everyone likes to see their name high up on the score card, even if they don't claim to. Increasing the penalty for a miss will take away some of that entertainment.

 

After all, clubs are in the entertainment business. Not in the 'marksmanship' business.

 

Those that want to get better will practice and shoot well. Those that don't, won't. It's pretty simple.

 

I argued with myself and a few others about this very topic (is the purpose of the club to make shooters better or to provide a venue for a social event?) several years ago. It's a venue for a social event, for good or bad.

 

Always enjoy discussions with you.

 

Doc

 

+1

 

Same here Doc, I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.

 

And honestly I think your "read" on this is absolutely right. As you said, "It's not a shooting match they're going to, it's a social event with a shooting match on the side."

 

Like you, I too have "argued with myself and a few others about this very topic (is the purpose of the club to make shooters better or to provide a venue for a social event?) several years ago. It's a venue for a social event, for good or bad."

 

I agree 100%. I was just wondering what effect such a thing would have on increasing accuracy and it comes down to that it does not matter because the fact is that more than not folks will get frustrated and some might not come back.

 

As always, thanks for your insight Doc .

 

Semper Fi!

 

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

They do with hand grenades!

 

Then there is that isn't there!

 

I wonder how many second penalty you'd get with a Hand Grenade miss!

 

Semper Fi pard!

 

[Cypress Sun]

Wee Doggie..............I don't think it would hurt the faster shooters any where near as much as the middle of the road shooters. I don't see a further penalty for a miss as being an beneficial to the sport, expecially with newer shooters to the sport. Wouldn't be a good idea IMHO.

 

CS

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

To be honest, I don't think the vast majority of folks care to put in the time necessary to improve their marksmanship. They're out at the matches to have a good time and see their friends. It's not a shooting match they're going to, it's a social event with a shooting match on the side.

 

What I think will end up happening (and past club experiences bear this out), folks will get frustrated and not come back. Everyone likes to see their name high up on the score card, even if they don't claim to. Increasing the penalty for a miss will take away some of that entertainment.

 

After all, clubs are in the entertainment business. Not in the 'marksmanship' business.

 

Those that want to get better will practice and shoot well. Those that don't, won't. It's pretty simple.

 

I argued with myself and a few others about this very topic (is the purpose of the club to make shooters better or to provide a venue for a social event?) several years ago. It's a venue for a social event, for good or bad.

I agree, why would we want to slow the game down?? You want smaller targets further away, 10 second miss, 20 second P, start a NCOWS club. Nothing against NCOWS, if there was one close by I would shoot there also.

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

PC, you heard what you wanted to hear about the OWSA match. THE reason OWSA is an accuracy match is that the targets are small and WAY out there (at least that's how they were the last time I went almost a decade ago).

 

The 10 second miss penalty is irrelevant.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

PC,

This is a game (I sometimes forget that).

Unlike almost EVERY other shooting game - SASS has never claimed it was in place to make you BETTER at something else.

 

Trap - Skeet - IPSC - IDPA - IHMSA - etc. etc. etc. all have at their core

"If you play our game, this will improve your shooting for...."

 

SASS has always sold the game as entertainment - relive your childhood - ride the range with Gene and Roy.

If you decide that it is no longer PRIMARILY entertainment, but instead a training tool - you will lose a significant % of your shooters.

They don't come to be trained/ improved or elevated - they come play cowboy because of the absence of that kind of stuff. They come to have fun.

 

You ever look around a SASS match?

Old men - Old women - Fat guys - Kids and yes, the top guns too, our matches have a pretty good representation of people from all walks.

Why? Because they hit (big and close) targets - it's fun and no one is trying to chase them out of the game by saying "You're not good enough to play this game"

 

Our AVERAGE cowboy shooter is not as good of a shooter as the AVERAGE Trap - Skeet - IPSC - IDPA - IHMSA - etc. etc. etc. shooter.

Because those games are more difficult and use that difficulty deliberately to either improve or cull the poorer shooters - folks will quit because it's not fun or out of frustration with their own inabilities.

This is not a tone we want to set or to have anyone experience at a cowboy action match.

 

Obviously this is not directed at the top 25% of our shooters - That group is skilled and DEDICATED and would overcome whatever challenge you place in front of them.

And if SASS did not exist, they would thrive in whatever gun game they chose to play with the same effort and dedication that they have given to cowboy.

 

But - we have to set our matches, our scoring and our penalties to encourage and entertain the other 75%.

Because it is that 75% that caused cowboy to grow as it has.

It is that 75% that includes the folks that pre cowboy had never played a gun game.

It is that 75% that includes the folks that pre cowboy never owned a gun.

It is that 75% that includes the folks that left other disciplines because of the "Need to improve the shooter" mentality.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Double tap - I wonder if that is a 20 second "P" or a 10 second miss?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...

Our AVERAGE cowboy shooter is not as good of a shooter as the AVERAGE Trap - Skeet - IPSC - IDPA - IHMSA - etc. etc. etc. shooter...

 

Are there reliable statistics available to support this claim?

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

PC,

This is a game (I sometimes forget that).

Unlike almost EVERY other shooting game - SASS has never claimed it was in place to make you BETTER at something else.

 

Trap - Skeet - IPSC - IDPA - IHMSA - etc. etc. etc. all have at their core

"If you play our game, this will improve your shooting for...."

 

SASS has always sold the game as entertainment - relive your childhood - ride the range with Gene and Roy.

If you decide that it is no longer PRIMARILY entertainment, but instead a training tool - you will lose a significant % of your shooters.

They don't come to be trained/ improved or elevated - they come play cowboy because of the absence of that kind of stuff. They come to have fun.

 

You ever look around a SASS match?

Old men - Old women - Fat guys - Kids and yes, the top guns too, our matches have a pretty good representation of people from all walks.

Why? Because they hit (big and close) targets - it's fun and no one is trying to chase them out of the game by saying "You're not good enough to play this game"

 

Our AVERAGE cowboy shooter is not as good of a shooter as the AVERAGE Trap - Skeet - IPSC - IDPA - IHMSA - etc. etc. etc. shooter.

Because those games are more difficult and use that difficulty deliberately to either improve or cull the poorer shooters - folks will quit because it's not fun or out of frustration with their own inabilities.

This is not a tone we want to set or to have anyone experience at a cowboy action match.

 

Obviously this is not directed at the top 25% of our shooters - That group is skilled and DEDICATED and would overcome whatever challenge you place in front of them.

And if SASS did not exist, they would thrive in whatever gun game they chose to play with the same effort and dedication that they have given to cowboy.

 

But - we have to set our matches, our scoring and our penalties to encourage and entertain the other 75%.

Because it is that 75% that caused cowboy to grow as it has.

It is that 75% that includes the folks that pre cowboy had never played a gun game.

It is that 75% that includes the folks that pre cowboy never owned a gun.

It is that 75% that includes the folks that left other disciplines because of the "Need to improve the shooter" mentality.

 

All good points! Thanks!