Any "Out of the box" shooters?

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

I find the level of resistance to the notion of a category of shooting that caters to box stock shooters interesting. The arguments that it can't be enforced are just as interesting. To say such is to suggest that none of the categories with rules are actually enforceable, which we know isn't true. To harbor any dislike toward shooters that prefer their firearms slick, or box stock is just as inappropriate. We like what we like, and this is indeed a big tent. If we can see our way through to have categories that are based on the notion that certain age groups do not want to shoot against other age groups, or rather they prefer to have a category that allows them to compete against folks of their own age croup; and we have categories that likewise separate shooters based on the powder they shoot, as well as the clothes they wear, or the firearms we shoot, then where is the harm in having a category that is based on the level of modification?

 

I was hoping to gather those of like mind together this summer to shoot accordingly, but a change in career pretty much fouled up my ability to spend time on it, to the point that it has not allowed me to shoot since August. It is rather exasperating, to say the least. What is even more exasperating is to know that there are growing numbers of people out there with the same interest, but no one seems inspired to do anything about it. Until we can organize shoots at the local level, no one at the regional or national level will show much, if any interest in the notion.

 

The nay sayers are not the obstacle. They can't help or hurt the idea. They have no power to influence it in any way because they have nothing to do with it. It is only those who care about it that have the power or influence to do anything about it. As we have seen many times, the number of members here on The Wire who support or are against a new idea neither guarantees the success, nor the failure of the effort. It is the members at the local level who make or break any effort you attempt. It is to them you must turn your attention. But to be successful at the local level, you have to be able to spend time on it and attend the matches. Something that at this point in life, I am unable to do.

 

Rev,

 

There are a few problems with some sort of "Stock Category."

 

First, Why? What's the "need"?

 

Second, who's going to be the "Stock Gun Detectives" who will varify that a person is for sure shooting all straight "out of the box" untouched virgin guns?

 

Third, why can't a shooter who feels he's at a disadvantage pick another Category to shoot in? It seems to that if a shooter feels he's at a disadvantage against another shooter because he had his pistol "tuned" ... then I would think that he doesn't have to shoot against him by just choosing to shoot against others in another Category.

 

Lastly, how can anyone think that we need any more Categories to pick from?

 

Geeze Rev, my club has so many Category that I signed up for a Category where I ended up came in 3rd .... The problem was it only had a field of 3. Now I know "3rd" sounds better than "Last", but come on!

 

If there was a new Category, I'd suggest the "Turtle Shooters".

It can be for us who believe in the motto, "we're slow but we'll get there!"

 

[Cascade Charlie, SASS # 48668L]

Dude - I'm not even going to read this novel...

Geeeeeze!

 

 

I loved that one!

[Anvil Al #59168]

Have not been able to work on it since Aug???

 

What about the year and a half before that??

 

It was almost 2 years ago that you was starting to work on it???

 

Shotgun Franklin got one going at his club in a week.

But we have not heard anything back form him on how it went.

 

If you was really going to do it. You would have done it by now.

 

 

All hat. No cattle.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Utah pulls his coat close around his aching frame and tightens the bindings on his snowshoes. He begins the long trek back to the cabin as the wind moans through the pines.

 

"Yup", he says to no one in particular, his words lost in the frigid breeze, "Looks like it'll be a long time to Spring this year".

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Have not been able to work on it since Aug???

 

What about the year and a half before that??

 

It was almost 2 years ago that you was starting to work on it???

 

Shotgun Franklin got one going at his club in a week.

But we have not heard anything back form him on how it went.

 

If you was really going to do it. You would have done it by now.

 

 

All hat. No cattle.

At this rate that career change I was going to make as a "STOCK DETECTIVE" is looking further and further into the future.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

...heck! Just shoot what ya have

 

like we say in the drag racing world...'run what ya brung'

 

GG ~

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

At this rate that career change I was going to make as a "STOCK DETECTIVE" is looking further and further into the future.

 

"STOCK DETECTIVE"?

 

Not a bad job, just look at the retirement plan Tom Horn got!

 

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Rev,

 

There are a few problems with some sort of "Stock Category."

 

First, Why? What's the "need"?

 

Second, who's going to be the "Stock Gun Detectives" who will varify that a person is for sure shooting all straight "out of the box" untouched virgin guns?

 

Third, why can't a shooter who feels he's at a disadvantage pick another Category to shoot in? It seems to that if a shooter feels he's at a disadvantage against another shooter because he had his pistol "tuned" ... then I would think that he doesn't have to shoot against him by just choosing to shoot against others in another Category.

 

Lastly, how can anyone think that we need any more Categories to pick from?

 

Geeze Rev, my club has so many Category that I signed up for a Category where I ended up came in 3rd .... The problem was it only had a field of 3. Now I know "3rd" sounds better than "Last", but come on!

 

If there was a new Category, I'd suggest the "Turtle Shooters".

It can be for us who believe in the motto, "we're slow but we'll get there!"

 

 

I can't respond to all of this, but I can respond to part of it, the question:

"Third, why can't a shooter who feels he's at a disadvantage pick another Category to shoot in? It seems to that if a shooter feels he's at a disadvantage against another shooter because he had his pistol "tuned" ... then I would think that he doesn't have to shoot against him by just choosing to shoot against others in another Category. "

 

Because there is no category that doesn't include short-strokes.

[Two Spurs]

...heck! Just shoot what ya have

 

like we say in the drag racing world...'run what ya brung'

 

GG ~

+1 1/2 Gunner!

 

Ain't no way on the planet I'm gonna read all this thread, but I've read a portion. It's a shame that the "it has to be fair for me/change it to meet my level" has infected CAS. Yeah, I know it's been here for a while. Here's a few facts the way I see it:

1) Life ain't fair. Get over it. THAT's the real world.

2) Quit belly-aching casue someone is better than you OR has a few bucks more to slick up their rig.

3) If you want to be more competitive, practice more: Strive to get better instead of wanting to bring everything down to one's current level.

3a) If physical circumstances won't allow "getting better" then enjoy it for what it is.

4) Enjoy the game and strive for excellence- whether in skill or in the size of the smile on your face and the interaction with your pards. THIS is what it's all about.

 

If you can't do these, then you need to find another past-time.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I can't respond to all of this, but I can respond to part of it, the question:

"Third, why can't a shooter who feels he's at a disadvantage pick another Category to shoot in? It seems to that if a shooter feels he's at a disadvantage against another shooter because he had his pistol "tuned" ... then I would think that he doesn't have to shoot against him by just choosing to shoot against others in another Category. "

 

Because there is no category that doesn't include short-strokes.

 

 

Yes there is. Its called the 'Win' category. There have been more than 'a few' good shooters who have won their categories at the BIG matches using non-short stroked rifles.

 

If my memory serves me correctly, Badlands BEN won EOT Gunfighter category a couple years ago using a non-short stroked rifle. Atleast thats the story I was told.

 

General comment to everyone: I think the word 'Short Stroke' gets a bad rap sometimes. There are actually alot of rifles out there that have had the unnecessary lever 'over travel' eliminated and in reality, I don't think these can be considered a SS.

 

Although mine have not been setup to shorten the lever throw, it is possible to work the lever @ 90% of its travel distance and still operate perfect. That means that within that 90% (approx) lever travel, I have ejected the empty, picked up a fresh round and chambered it and the bolt travelled rearward enough to cock the hammer.

 

Well, thats my take on the topic of SS.

 

Best regards to all

 

 

..........Widder

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Yes there is. Its called the 'Win' category. There have been more than 'a few' good shooters who have won their categories at the BIG matches using non-short stroked rifles.

 

If my memory serves me correctly, Badlands BEN won EOT Gunfighter category a couple years ago using a non-short stroked rifle. Atleast thats the story I was told.

 

General comment to everyone: I think the word 'Short Stroke' gets a bad rap sometimes. There are actually alot of rifles out there that have had the unnecessary lever 'over travel' eliminated and in reality, I don't think these can be considered a SS.

 

Although mine have not been setup to shorten the lever throw, it is possible to work the lever @ 90% of its travel distance and still operate perfect. That means that within that 90% (approx) lever travel, I have ejected the empty, picked up a fresh round and chambered it and the bolt travelled rearward enough to cock the hammer.

 

Well, thats my take on the topic of SS.

 

Best regards to all

 

 

..........Widder

 

Shalako Joe...2 time World Champ...no Short Stroke...just a lot of shooting time.

 

Oddnews is truely just whinning. Rather then doing something about it at a local level, he screams his wants hoping someone will do the heavy lifting.

 

I would suggest that Oddnews either S**TS or gets OFF THE POT!

 

Cheers...and good mornin to ya'll.

 

Phantom

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Shalako Joe...2 time World Champ...no Short Stroke...just a lot of shooting time.

 

Oddnews is truely just whinning. Rather then doing something about it at a local level, he screams his wants hoping someone will do the heavy lifting.

 

I would suggest that Oddnews either S**TS or gets OFF THE POT!

 

Cheers...and good mornin to ya'll.

 

Phantom

 

Not about winning, losing or whining -- it's about the fantasy. My fantasy doesn't include guns that don't operate as they did in the Old West, and I want to compete against people using the same sort of guns, not modern ones.

 

No different than the set aside made for gunfighter, duellist, BP, Frontier Cartridge, etcetera.

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Shalako Joe...2 time World Champ...no Short Stroke...just a lot of shooting time.

 

Oddnews is truely just whinning. Rather then doing something about it at a local level, he screams his wants hoping someone will do the heavy lifting.

 

I would suggest that Oddnews either S**TS or gets OFF THE POT!

 

Cheers...and good mornin to ya'll.

 

Phantom

 

Sorry about the double-tap.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Not about winning, losing or whining -- it's about the fantasy. My fantasy doesn't include guns that don't operate as they did in the Old West, and I want to compete against people using the same sort of guns, not modern ones.

 

No different than the set aside made for gunfighter, duellist, BP, Frontier Cartridge, etcetera.

 

HELLLLLOOOOOOO...you're whinning. You won't do anything to get this idea going EXCEPT get on the Wire and complain that it ain't getting done!

 

So...apparently your fantasy includes having someone else do the work for you in getting this Category going...sorry, but that's pathetic.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

The pen is mightier than the sword, it is said. Nonetheless, I still believe in that sort of category and I don't hesitate to say so.

[Anvil Al #59168]

The pen is mightier than the sword, it is said. Nonetheless, I still believe in that sort of category and I don't hesitate to say so.

 

 

But not willing to do any work to get it done.

 

All hat. No cattle.

[Madd Mike #8595]

out of the box category

 

...................................question ONE

 

.......................would these all be equal,,, in the box category.......................

(meaning be legal-----as is------ out of the box)

 

http://www.gundirectory.com/body.asp?gun=R...&mfgCou=USA

 

http://www.gundirectory.com/body.asp?gun=R...mp;mfgCou=Italy

 

http://www.gundirectory.com/body.asp?gun=R...&mfgCou=USA

 

http://www.gundirectory.com/body.asp?gun=R...&mfgCou=USA

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

When I started SASS I used out of the box fireams. The shotgun was a Stoeger that required your knee to break it open, then if you were lucky it might stay open enough to reload, and the left barrel would fire when it wanted to. The Marlin rifle jammed, and at times required shaking it violently sideways to chamber a round. The Cimarron Lightings I got for Heather would barley function at all. I am not a competitive shooter, but it's nice to make through a stage without your firearm acting like a Plymouth Valiant trying to grind into third gear. That's what it reminds me of when I see new shooters fighting the lever action of some of these stock firearms, but I still loved that ole Plymouth. Now all of our firearms have been slicked up by some of the finest gunsmiths in the country, it's a pure pleasure to handle these firearms now. Has It made me any more competitive?? No, but I shore do have alot more fun.

 

Jefro, Relax-Enjoy

[Knarley Bob]

WHO IS THE IDIOT WHO STARTED THIS THREAD??????????

 

Uh ........... oh yeah.........oops

 

Sorry.

 

Knarley

[Madd Mike #8595]

WHO IS THE IDIOT WHO STARTED THIS THREAD??????????

 

Knarley

 

 

yah

put him in a box

 

 

LOL

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

The nay sayers are not the obstacle. They can't help or hurt the idea. They have no power to influence it in any way because they have nothing to do with it. It is only those who care about it that have the power or influence to do anything about it. As we have seen many times, the number of members here on The Wire who support or are against a new idea neither guarantees the success, nor the failure of the effort. It is the members at the local level who make or break any effort you attempt. It is to them you must turn your attention. But to be successful at the local level, you have to be able to spend time on it and attend the matches. Something that at this point in life, I am unable to do.

 

Rev., your last paragraph, in particular these sentences, "It is the members at the local level who make or break any effort you attempt. It is to them you must turn your attention." are dead on. Essentially, this is what folks here on the Wire have, for a long time, been attempting to relate to those who wish to have a stock gun class.

 

If someone wants to do it, then do it...but don't be surprised if best efforts yield little or no results. Zero efforts is certain to yield zero results. Zero actual efforts combined with a boatload of writing on the wire simply comes off as whining. I'm not trying to be ugly to anyone, but just stating the facts as I see them.

 

In regard to this sentence: "As we have seen many times, the number of members here on The Wire who support or are against a new idea neither guarantees the success, nor the failure of the effort." While it does not guarantee success or failure, it typically IS a very strong indication of the feelings of the people playing the game. If there were poll takers who based their projections upon opinions stated on the Wire, they would probably find that the actual results were within the normal projection accuracy much like an exit poll at elections are typically accurate. Someone who tries to get extremely ambitious with projections might end up with a "Dewey Wins" headline.

 

To use the recent TG Summit as an example, those of us who read and participate in Wire debates might have suffered some disappointment, but were not honestly surprised. The topics that were argued heavily to fail failed. Those that were argued closely were close. I personally wanted Dewey to be able to shoot FCGF with Bisley hammers, but I can’t say I was surprised that he can’t.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

"STOCK DETECTIVE"?

Not a bad job, just look at the retirement plan Tom Horn got!

Hmmm .... good point and probably have the same result for having called someone's dark-alley-slick-job-short-stroke in violation of the STOCK CLASS code.... From now on and for the record ALL of my guns are stock out of the box never been touched virgin steel. At least that way I have an excuse other than lack of dedication, determination and talent.

 

The pen is mightier than the sword, it is said. Nonetheless, I still believe in that sort of category and I don't hesitate to say so.

Well, that is until someone shows up with actual swords and then all the flowery talk just leaks out of the hole in the writer's heart. Not that I'd wish that on anyone.

 

I had a nightmare last night. In it I was making a post to this same thread. But, in the meantime I had an idea for the ODD/REV bunch: Take all the names of all those in this post who support yet another STOCK GUN category and therefore may still have STOCK GUNZ. Send them all a PM and aks 'em de qweshhun, "Whut about it? YOU IN?"

 

BOOM! maybe you can get three to show up. Y'all can huddle up in a kumbaya and email three or five more each.

 

At least it's a start.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Well, that is until someone shows up with actual swords and then all the flowery talk just leaks out of the hole in the writer's heart. Not that I'd wish that on anyone.

 

Brother King, in case I have never told you this before, you ain't right. You have a weird sense of humor and I hate to admit that I get it...and find myself laughing, uh giggling, I mean snickering, no smiling, awwww heck...it's funny. Flowery talk just leaks out.

[Bart Solo]

What is the definition of "out of the box" or "stock?"

 

And I have one word for folks who want a truly authentic "stock" category: NCOWS.

[Shooting Bull]

What is the definition of "out of the box" or "stock?"

 

And I have one word for folks who want a truly authentic "stock" category: NCOWS.

 

 

It's an incomplete description of your Corn Flakes when you're tryin' to fix breakfast before finishin' your first cup of coffee. The complete description is : "Out of the box and on the floor."

[Knarley Bob]

I give up

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

My fantasy doesn't include guns that don't operate as they did in the Old West, and I want to compete against people using the same sort of guns, not modern ones.

If you actually competed, one might take you a little more seriously. If you were to actually try to organize something at your local level to try it out, one might take you more seriously. If you would do something other than WHINE on the Wire that you don't have a category to shoot in, one might take you more seriously. Do ANY of those things and you'd probably get a lot less grief from people. Just saying.....

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

If you actually competed, one might take you a little more seriously. If you were to actually try to organize something at your local level to try it out, one might take you more seriously. If you would do something other than WHINE on the Wire that you don't have a category to shoot in, one might take you more seriously. Do ANY of those things and you'd probably get a lot less grief from people. Just saying.....

 

IROT: OK, I only got to shoot once last year, but I shot. Can you shoot when your schedule doesn't allow it? Neither do I.

And expressing an opinion is not whining.

 

Grief? Who cares about grief? A person of honor should act so as to be happy with his own actions and statements. The actions and statements of others are their own concerns. Just saying ...

[Rev. Sayer Prayers, SASS #64327]

My point is proved. The first response came from someone whining about whining. Perfect. Then the nay sayers with their attempts to make you think that the rules cannot be enforced. We have a limit on the length of short strokes. Cannot that be enforced? It can. Then there are those that want everyone to believe that a stock class means you cannot tune the firearm. That is like saying that stock cars must be rolled off the showroom floor and raced without so much as a change of spark plugs. Foolishness at its best.

 

Then we get the "Why can't you just be happy and shoot in the categories that allow short strokes, choke tubes, modified hammers and all the other mods?" Why don't we allow smokeless powder in the black powder categories? That is simple to answer. So simple, it doesn't even need to be answered. But there are those who love the modified firearms who have numerous categories to shoot in who will begrudge those who have a different notion a single category of their own. Then we get the "Go join NCOWS crowd." Oh, how proud I am to be a member of an organization who welcomes this sort of nonsense. Proud indeed.

 

Thanks for so soundly proving my point.

[Anvil Al #59168]

My point is proved. The first response came from someone whining about whining. Perfect. Then the nay sayers with their attempts to make you think that the rules cannot be enforced. We have a limit on the length of short strokes. Cannot that be enforced? It can. Then there are those that want everyone to believe that a stock class means you cannot tune the firearm. That is like saying that stock cars must be rolled off the showroom floor and raced without so much as a change of spark plugs. Foolishness at its best.

 

Then we get the "Why can't you just be happy and shoot in the categories that allow short strokes, choke tubes, modified hammers and all the other mods?" Why don't we allow smokeless powder in the black powder categories? That is simple to answer. So simple, it doesn't even need to be answered. But there are those who love the modified firearms who have numerous categories to shoot in who will begrudge those who have a different notion a single category of their own. Then we get the "Go join NCOWS crowd." Oh, how proud I am to be a member of an organization who welcomes this sort of nonsense. Proud indeed.

 

Thanks for so soundly proving my point.

 

 

Rev.

You have had about two years that I can think of to start one at your local club.

If it is so easy. Why have you not done so???

Please tell me. I would really like to know????

 

You have had more than enough time to do so. And you told us you was working on it. About two years ago.

SO. Where is it????

 

If the people that really want a stock category are not willing to put in any effort to get it going. Even on the local level.

Them WHY would anyone else.

 

You and Oddnews should get together. We could call y'all the Odd Couple.

Maybe the both of you could do enough work to get something done. Even on the local level.

 

 

But wait. That would involve doing something. And not just talk.

Never mind. That won't happen. They would rather just yak about it than do it.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

Rev.

You have had about two years that I can think of to start one at your locol club.

If it is so easy. Why have you not done so???

Because it's so much easier to come on the Wire and play the poor victim of the "mean" posters than it is to put boots on the ground and do something to get your pet project off the ground.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

IROT: OK, I only got to shoot once last year, but I shot. Can you shoot when your schedule doesn't allow it? Neither do I.

And expressing an opinion is not whining.

Congratulations on your one shoot last year. I agree that expressing an opinion isn't considered whining.....the first time or ten you express it. Constantly harping on the same theme without doing anything tangible to make it happen puts you squarely into the "whining" category.

 

Grief? Who cares about grief? A person of honor should act so as to be happy with his own actions and statements. The actions and statements of others are their own concerns.

Do you enjoy being the official harpy of this tired song? Do something about it or shut the hell up about it.

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

"Harping," is merely a pejorative, based on repetition. By that definition, you harp on the idea that short strokes are a good thing -- but I reject that definition, so I don't think you're harping on the topic, I merely think you're expressing your opinion.

 

And I express my own. As for "shut the hell up about it," ultimately I will. I'll die someday, or we may see a rules change. Until then I'll be true to myself, and allow you to do the same.

[Shooting Bull]

IROT: OK, I only got to shoot once last year, but I shot. Can you shoot when your schedule doesn't allow it? Neither do I.

 

I don't know you from Adam so I come to this discussion with a completely unbiased point of view. From what I recall, the only time you and I have ever chatted about anything was when discussing allowing expansion of the adjustable sight rules. You made some very good points then so I'm hoping you can do that again with my next questions. This may seem obvious but, if you can only manage to shoot once a year, why are you so Hell bent on forming an entire new category in the first place? Or for that matter, why would an organization, ANY organization, make such a drastic change to its rules for a memeber who didn't support said organization any more than you do? Would you then work to change your schedule to allow you to shoot more? Please don't take that as being mean spirited, it's most certainly not meant to be. Just simple curiosity.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I've said it before but a stock class would be a nightmare to police, and yes you would have to police it. Those of us that put on matches and ACTIVELY participate in the sport don't need any more rules or classes to think about.