"Big Boston"

WRT mentioning the '66. Some issues with the '66 are a bit unique to it and don't apply to a '73, but the posts do make a point, that the events involved with operating the action all need to work together, timing is the most important factor. Clearance is the other. Basically the action needs to work within the limitations of the lifter, The lifter is not where I'd remove metal to try and correct a timing issue. This rule applies more to an action that has not been professionally slicked. With a true action job every piece has been tuned to work in with the other pieces. At the core, you'll need to send it off or determine the root cause and correct that. IMO, the lifter operation looks more like a symptom. There are lots of friction points in a toggle link action, and the wear points do wear. In Canada, gunsmiths familiar with the inner working of the '66/'73 rifles are few and usually on the other end of the country. In addition a 3 to 6 month wait for repairs/tuning is normal. That makes DIY less on an option and more of a necessity. One heck of a learning curve, for me anyways, and I did ruin a few parts. Hint, modify the cheap parts first, that way mistakes aren't as costly. On a '73 a video of complete cycle will give us cowboys an opportunity to see the issue. I think the maintenance of a '66/'73 is a DIY, modifying probably not. Even the well designed short stroke kits are not entirely a drop in and shoot proposition. BB P.S. My goto for information is https://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info

My fascination for tools from the past seems to know no bounds, and it seems like some of my friends have noticed. I was doing the standing behind my table at a gunshow and another vendor that also shoots cowboy at our club walks over with an old but complete Lachmiller 12 gauge shotshell sizer decapper. He words were, "For you" and he walked away smiling. I replied back, with a hopefully sincere sounding, thanks. I've seen it on his table at other gunshows, picked it up on several occasions to try and figure out how it worked. I have a MEC 600 Jr and a MEC Sizemaster, the need for a stand alone sizer decapper just isn't there. Not entirely as my MEC doesn't size the base to SAAMI minimum, more like SAAMI middle. But I like hand tools, so I set about to clean it up, and come up with a mounting solution. The cleanup was pretty routine, the tool has seen very little use, is very well made. It disassembles easily with normal hand tools. I did not paint it, doesn't need it IMO, and I didn't want to invest a whole lot of time in this project. It works rather well, the base of the shell is sized to minimum SAAMI spec and the spring loaded decapping pin blasts the spent primer out of the pocket. The spent primer catcher is a bit rudimentary, Lachmiller added a bit of a down spout on a upgraded model, according to the pictures I've seen. Cleaned and lubed up for work. I had about a 100 hulls to work with and using this machine was fun, and I decapped and sized them all. The odd primer did not hit the funnel, but to be honest, the hulls had sat in my garage for a few years and the primers were in there tight. The spring loaded decapping system reminds me of how the Dillon FL sizer die decapper is made. The mounting board is designed so that I can mount the tool in my vise, do the task, and then put the tool back on the shelf. I've a few tools I've mounted this way, a real space saver. Most work areas have a bench vise, one of those universal tools. The Lachmiller tool has three 5/16" mounting holes, and a fourth, 1/2" hole was added so the spent primers had somewhere to go. A small metal measuring cup that has lost its handle fit under the mounting board and does an admirable job of catching the spent primers. (I've offset the press to show the spent primer container) BB

Thanks, good information.

Locally a BSS came up for sale, a bit spendy at 1500 CAD, but not out of line IMO. It's been a while since I researched the SxS option, is the BSS still a good candidate for a reliable coach gun? Because it's M & F the first step will be to shorten the barrels, to likely 20" and install a big bead up front. This will likely decrease the value to less than half, but I have no use for a M & F long barreled shotgun. I'm not a fan of 3" chambers as I only shoot 2 3/4", but in reality that is a minor flaw. The length of pull looks to be a bit long, I'll likely take an inch off the butt as well. Are there any issues that I should address before getting serious? On the BSS I had back in the day I had a lot of problems with the hinge pin, it would bind and gall. I ended up doing lots of polishing and greasing to keep that problem from getting too bad, but it would eat itself every once in a while. I suspected bad metal. I noticed the galling after shooting about 10 shells.

The '66 and '73 designs do have a few friction points that need some attention when lubricating. Be sure to check these areas and take appropriate action. I'm assuming that a BP shooter would have a few different recommendations than a smokeless shooter would when it comes to lubrication. In addition, there is that old oil vs grease when and where issue.

I hates BP, but I agree with GJ on this one, for the reasons he stated, and the reputation of the Iver Johnson top breaks. I believe that if I were loading for an IJ top break, it would be with only with BP. A young shooter at our club has an antique top break, and loads only BP, and it just keeps on running, meet after meet. BP and a light(ish) bullet cast of soft(ish) lead.

There are a few powders made specifically for high velocity loads that are within the pressure limits of the cartridge. IOW, if you need to gain some velocity over your normal load, you can switch to a powder like CFE Pistol, or Power Pistol (Alliant) and gain velocity. It is a high energy powder. Even if you were to move up to a 158 gr bullet, a minimum load would just barely be slow enough to be legal. If CFE Pistol is anything like HS-6, lowering the pressure will get you a lot of unburned powder, and if your bullet pull and crimp are not up there, erratic ignition will result. You could try loading below min recommended, but you should be chronographing your loads. Start with a min load to get a base line. However, be prepared to clean lead from your barrel, I've not been able to avail leading at near 1000 fps, YMMV. BTW, the CFE part of the name stands for Copper Fouling Eliminator, IOW there is tin in the powder to help reduce, or eliminate, copper fouling from jacketed bullets. Not that I want to rain on your parade, but I've invariably had better results loading a heavier bullet, 140 to 158 grains. It's easier to find a load that will shoot to the sights, have a low(ish) velocity (under 800 fps, closer to 700 fps). That being said, I've chronographed loads for other cowboys, and they had loads that were relatively consistent and low(ish) in velocity. One was a Bullseye load, the other with 700X. Those powders are Fast. I helped develop the 700X load for the cowboy, prior to his buying the 700X powder. (He had run out of Trail Boss.) Why 700X, mainly because it was available, and back in the day it was a popular all around pistol and light shotgun powder. It can be used for subsonic shotgun loads as well. But mostly because it was available. I see from the box that your bullets are Hi-Tek coated, and that is an advantage. Perhaps not era correct, but a good choice. Given the present situation, selling your CFE Pistol, or trading it for a faster powder is likely possible. IMHO you will not be happy with your ammo if you decide to use the CFE Pistol. Most of my reduced loads with slow pistol powders haven't worked well. Getting more popular is getting cowboy pistols in 9mm Luger. A reduced load (under book min) would likely work in that. I load a 357 dia bullet in my 9mm Vaquero, it works. I didn't use CFE Pistol though. But the larger bullet worked well. From what I could tell, it may be hard to find a 9mm combo that wouldn't work. IMHO, if I were able to buy a new cowboy revolver, it would be 9mm. Cheap brass, cheap on powder and not fussy on the bullet. Canada has banned the sale of handguns. BB

I apologize if I missed the the Country of Origin or manufacturer. The hit or miss quality of some imports annoys me. And yes, a lot slicker than the two I seen used. And one of those was a Coyote Capp. I'll have to get one. I started with a 1897, and added a few more of those, a SxS and a single shot. As far as fun, the single shot is the winner. The SxS is not fun, it's a skill gun IMHO. But I can see myself finishing a stage with the 87 and saying "I'll be back". On my bucket list is to develop a buckshot load, cowboy power to fool with. Yes, I'm well aware it is not allowed, but heck, it would be fun. My idea is for a 6 pellet load at subsonic speeds, if that is possible. BB

I have a Smoke Wagon, and I believe mechanically it is the same as a El Patron, IOW it has the retractile safety. But as you have stated, that part of the mechanism doesn't seem to be the issue as you have a solid firing pin strike on the brass. My Smoke Wagon was procured used, so my issues may have been induced after the firearm left the factory, but it may also be indicative of the quality standards to which they are built. But just like back in the day, gunsmiths were a necessity to keep, or get a handgun working properly. I see that the Pettifogger files have been mentioned. Those files were at the core of my resource information. I also found some information on SAA timing to compliment the Pettifogger files. You've already had it apart and have changed springs, so you know your way around the parts. Before checking the operation, the parts inside should be clean and lubed. On my SW I ended up buying a new hand and I also changed the retractile firing pin pieces. They may have been OK, but the RFP didn't seem to be working correctly. On to the clicks. I check the clicks with a smooth and very slow pulling back of the trigger. The fist click is the half cock, if the ejector rod is working correctly, and the chamber is in the center of the loading gate slot, that's probably not an issue. The second click drops the bolt into the ramp area of the notch. This drop is usually at the point where the ramp just begins. The third or last click is the hammer dropping into the sear notch. This last click should occur concurrent with the bolt locking the cylinder. On mine, the cylinder had not turned enough and the bolt was not in battery with the hammer in the sear. This does require a very smooth and slow pull on the hammer and you need to stop just as the trigger drops into the sear notch. My hand had some timing adjustment marks, so I replaced it to get back to as close to as issued as I could. Sorry, not real technical but basically that will confirm if the timing is within normal operating parameters or not. To be thorough, check all six. My other experience with these was mostly undoing "adjustments" that the previous owners had experimented with. Sometimes guns are sold because they have flaws, and not all the flaws were there from the factory. I'd like to add that it's been my experience that new parts from Uberti are built precise enough that no fine tuning is needed. I'm old school, get the operation correct, and let normal use slick itself. My gunsmith paygrade isn't very high, my slicking skills stop at removing the odd burr, smoothing the odd friction point and making sure the guns guts are clean and lubricated. There is a whole bunch of experience that frequents this forum, and a lot of problem solvers as well, posting pictures will let other eyes see the parts. BB

I have a Uberti 66 in 38 Spl. I have an aluminum carrier and a standard short stroke kit in it. I used all PGW parts and followed their information for modifications. It was a learning process as this was my first toggle link rifle. I had issues, broke a ladle and had some feeding issues. After working on it for the first year or two it has given me very little trouble. It's a bit intimidating at first, but if you have a bit of gun work experience, it can be a DIY project. The tools needed list isn't too long. In addition I have a 16" barrel and I trimmed the spring to get it to load 10. Filing and sanding off brass was a bit worrisome at first, but the PGW info is good. I started with one '66, and have added a few more '73s. All the Ubertis needed some TLC and most had minor flaws that needed attention. I'm in Canada, getting parts isn't easy, but Taylors sure helped. I've ordered several times and their customer service is decent. Even when mistakes were made, by me mostly, problems were solved without undue hardship. Their old website was better, their present site is convoluted, that's my way of politely saying it's crap. BB

Blasting with baking soda is probably the direction I'd go. I've blasted vintage snowmobile parts and they come out looking real nice. BB

I'll assume that the 30-30 barrel is good, and this is just a project. Back in Winchester 94 Commemorative days they made some in 44-40. I owned and used one for shooting cowboy when I started. It may not be the fastest action, but honestly my speed with it allowed me to run in the middle of the pack. I'm still running in the middle of the pack now, even with better kit. Sometimes it's not the kit, ............. The Commemorative series was post '64, and lots of the parts were MIM, a metal powder and glue mix meant for making kitchen utensils. The rifle was a loaner and I could tell after a few matches that the rifle was starting to eat itself. I had greased and oiled it at all the wear points, polished any burr I could find, but it was getting worn out fast. Out of respect for the owner I stopped using it before it was trash. I do have a comment on the design, to make feeding reliable the engineers came up with a folded metal part to make a long action work with a short cartridge. I think that one factor would make me abandon such a project. Sounds like you don't have a need for a 30-30, perhaps selling it and moving on would be a better decision. However, a rebarrel to 38-55 is another matter entirely. With a rebarrel, or rebore, you have some control over the bore/groove dimensions and can have a tailored chamber reamed. Win/Win. I've owned a Commemorative in 38-55, the MIM job was much better than the 44-40 and it was a good rifle all around. I got to appreciate the caliber. The other one was not as good. The action was clunky and it wouldn't shoot the ammo that worked well in the other one. I'm no Winchester expert, but it's been my experience that most of the pre 64 Winchester 94s were good, unless abused or worn out. After '64 up until Miroku began making them, some of those were OK, but a lot were poorly made with some dodgy metal. I have a '73 in 38/357, made by Miroku, that IMHO is a well made rifle. In conclusion, 45 Colt rebarrel is possible, but you may not be happy with it. Converting to 38-55 is possible and likely fairly common. However, 38-55 recoils a fair bit more than a 30-30, and even at BP velocities tends to kick you about a bit. A 30-30 shooting cast at 1400 to 1700 fps is fun, a 38-55 at those same velocities, less fun, more of a job. If I were to go 38-55 again, I think I'd like a heavier barrel, octagon, and a bit longer barrel as well, 24" min. A 20' round barrel carbine is a beast in 38-55. However, I'm not a real fan of having a rifle hurt me, I don't own a lever in 45-70. BB

Do what I do, close both your eyes just as you pull the trigger. I shoot smokeless and I only have one handgun that I'll see the flash on. It's a Mason-Richards 51 in 38 LC/38 Spl. I'm thinking that the long barrel has something to do with it, and the gap. Partially it's a matter of timing, IOW, the the burning rate of the powder and when and where along the barrel peak burning and pressure occur. I also suspect it has a bit to do with the nitroglycerine content of the powder. I don't see it all the time, but fairly often. You see it with BP as it burns for a long time, well past the muzzle. I'm thinking that for our game, the gap isn't all that critical. Mine run from about 0.003" to about 0.017". I'm more concerned with the rotation or wiggle in the cylinder when locked. That seems to give you the odd flyer. If you look at some of the guns from the real west, they were worn and sloppy. I think the Italians cloned a few of those. BB

I've been known to overthink issues and think a bit outside the box. The one load for several guns is a good concept, but sometimes you end up with rifle ammo and pistol ammo, and even ammo for one errant pistol or rifle. Sometimes that's just the way it is unless you are willing to unless you can live with the the compromises. With a polymer bullet you can tolerate a bit undersize, I would tend to check the groove diameters on all you 45 Colts, and size to that diameter. I just send the bullets through a LEE sizer, either style, and carry on. In a cowboy pistol, a slightly undersize bullet is easier on the cylinder. However, there is a limit, you have not given us the throat diameter or groove diameters of your pistol. If your 454 bullet is already undersize for the throats and groove, going smaller likely won't be an option. I've had instances where the rifle has the larger bullet requirement, and because a rifle will tolerate and undersize bullet easier than a pistol will, i just sized for the pistol. In your scenario, you may not be able to go smaller for the pistol. In which case, to shoot the same ammo in both, you will end up being oversize in the rifle. And like it has been stated, that will raise the pressure slightly, but at our normal loadings, it won't be anywhere close to max. I'd check the rifle chamber, take a fired case, and bell it, (no sizing or anything) and see if a 454 bullet drops into the case like it is supposed to. Or if it takes pressure to seat the bullet. Ideal is loose for our game. In addition, I usually take fired cases and see if they slip into all my chambers. I want to know if I have a gun with anomalies that I'll need to pay attention to. Most of my 45 colt stuff is loose, and my handguns are all made for 451 - 452 bullets. I have issues with my 44-40, every gun I own in 44-40 is different. and the 44-40 being a bottleneck cartridge, the shoulder isn't in a consistent location either. I set the shoulder back about 010 to 020 from the shortest chamber. Fortunately the 44-40s shoulder location being back further than needed is only a minor ballistic crime, something I don't loose much sleep over. Just the nature of the beast. BB

Just before the 2023 season started I bought a '51 Mason Richards by Uberti. A nice looking gun and it handles nicely as well. I like it so much I probably used it more often than any of my other guns. I have the long barrel, is chambered in 38 LC/38 Spl and I like it in the cross draw. Mine came in assembled kit form, as do most. I referred to the Pettifogger files more than once to get the old girl running. I needed a few parts and some advice as well. I like the customer service that Taylors provided me. They do have a rather annoying feature. The ejector rod lines up with the cylinder before the half cock stop. if you go to the stop, the rod misses the chamber mouth. No, not a defect, that is the way they came back in the day, and the new ones do as well. Mine was in horrible shape, test fired once and stored dirty for about 20 years. The barrel is pitted from the forcing cone in for about 3/8 of an inch. In addition the timing was off, and I needed some parts to fix that. I also moved the barrel back to take up some of the slop. IIRC I also replaced or tuned up the firing pin (pierced primers). The new ones are probably better, I can't see them being any worse. I also worked on the main spring, too heavy. It would drive the firing pin through the primer every time. WSP and CCI SP. If you will eventually sell your guns, clean them. It's OK to run them hard, but please do not put them away wet/dirty. If you are fussy and like perfect guns, don't buy one. They run just fine loose and sloppy. I have a '66 for a rifle, and my '97 just seems out of period, so I broke down and bought a SxS. I'm no purist, but shooting a '97 for a shotgun when my other guns are 73s or older just didn't seem right. BB

I does seem like this has become a show and shine post. The original Ruger Vaquero was replaced with the New Model Vaquero circa 2005. 2025 will be the 20th anniversary of the introduction of the New Model Vaquero, and 20 years since the last of the originals rolled out of the factory. I've sold most of mine, I honestly find them a bit big in the hand, but they are built rugged and strong. I kept one in 45 Colt, one in 44 Mag and one in 44-40. I don't use them often.

My bad, see CJs info.

Sounds like an interesting category. Several years back mentioned it at our club but pretty much got boo'd off the range. Yo me it's a "run what you brung" or "bring what you have" category. I'm thinking that if you don't already own a Cody/Dixon compliant rifle, it may not even be a game of interest, unless you are young, which I am not. I only own one 30-30 lever gun, a Bat Masterson Winchester 94 Commemorative, and that is what I'd use. The Commemorative Winchesters can, or at least they were pretty cheap to buy. That's a plus, but lots of them were made like poo or the metal was poo, some were decent. The Winchester Commemoratives all had decent barrels, with six deep wide grooves, and a 0.300 bore diameter. Those are probably typical Winchester dimensions. I don't foresee any issues shooting cast. But if the target was out at 150 yards, I'd need it to be a buffalo sized one. I'm more of a 50 yard 30-30 cowboy. I'd want a 24" octagon barrel for the 150 yard stuff. Yes, I do need to practice, but without a 30-30 class to compete in locally, not much incentive. I have a two 311041 double cavity molds and I'd cast a bit hard so I could ring the target, if I hit it. I've loaded it with various powders, it doesn't seem to be too fussy, just a matter of picking a velocity. I am a bit confused about the duplex loads accepted, what would a typical duplex load consist off? BB

Mine came to me in pre-assembled kit form, not unique to Stoeger, seems to be what you get nowadays. It`s hard to kick old habits to the curb, I pattern my shotguns and was happy to find that the test fired only Stoeger was a deluxe and came with chokes installed. The chokes that Stoeger uses are available for a reasonable price from the Stoeger Distributor in Canada. The chokes they sell are labeled IGA Choke. According to my research they are made to the WinChoke specs. I ordered the choke wrench as well, the one that should have come with mine, didn`t. For our game both chokes can and probably should be the same, and after testing it didn`t come as much of a surprise, that the Cyl choke ended up in both barrels. My Stoeger is a 20 ga and I load up a light target load, 3/4 oz @ 1150 fps. Not a powerhouse load, but it will break clays up to 30 yards. The pattern gets a bit thin out at that distance, a step up to the Imp Cyl would help, but 30 yards is about the limit for the small shot (7 1/2) anyways. It is a decent enough coach gun, certainly not a fine British SxS, It's a bit thick in the wrist area, and the front lumber is big as well. Precisely what would have been desired for riding in the drivers box of a stagecoach. My only mod was to remove the auto safety feature. I've not used it in a match yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't work well.