H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

.56 or .50 caliber? Unlike other early cartridge naming conventions, with the Spencer, 56-50 and 56-56 it is the SECOND number that denotes the caliber of the bullet, not the first. I have read that the only difference is the amount of crimp it takes to hold the bullet, that they both actually use the same brass. If it's an 1860, there's a good chance it's a 56-56, so plan to reload accordingly, Best to have the barrel slugged to be sure. BTW... A fine old veteran. When I do shoot it, I pair it with a Rogers and Spencer revolver converted to .45 Colt, and 1860 converted to the the same caliber. I'd love to also pair it with a Spencer shotgun, but they ain't SASS Legal, and I don't own one anyway.

First you need to know that the modern replicas and originals use different sized brass. Original brass will not fit in a repro and repro brass will not reliably eject. Something about rim size. The only place I know to get brass for an original is Buffalo Arms and yes it is expensive. That said owning and shooting a genuine Civil War surplus rifle is a huge amount of fun. After shooting the 7 in the magazine, I load the last three directly into the chamber. Which model is yours? Some eject spent brass better than others. Mine's a model 1865 Bannerman with the triangle blade ejector. It often only pulls the spent round halfway out of the chamber and I have to flick it away by hand. In other words, shooting a real Spencer is a slow, quirky process. But once you get the hang of it, it is a lot of fun. Good luck!

Fascinating! The firing pin on my Greener was also busted. Best way I can describe it is to say that the tip of the pin broke off, and the pin was at that perfectly strange length were sometimes it would go bang and sometimes it would just go click. He made a new firing pin for it, and now it works just fine.

I figured that might be a major part of it. But are there that many rich shooters over there? I guess anything is possible.

This comes up from time to time. In general, the responses run along the following lines. The 97 is indeed marked for use with 2-3/4" shells, but this refers to 2-3/4" paper roll crimped ones, not modern plastic star crimped ones. When fired, the modern plastic hulls have an overall length of 2-3/4" but the older style ones were only 2-5/8" Thus, repeatedly using the modern shells in the old 97s can create a bad pressure problem and potentially damage the gun and the shooter. Therefore, you should have the chamber lengthened and the forcing cone extended for use with modern shells. That's the most common answer to this question you will see, and I'll be honest and say that after hearing it many times, I have given this answer myself. But the last time this came up, a regular here on the wire, who really knows a lot about these things and whom I respect, said that all of that is hogwash, an that the 2-3/4" marking on the 97s is accurate and you can use modern shells with no problem. Seeing that made me start to question the above common answer. Of course, my solution to this problem is pretty simple, I have some even older than the 97 shotguns in my collection that I know have 2-1/2" chambers. For this reason I just run all brass 2-1/2" shells in all my cowboy shotguns. No need to worry about the chamber length. I have also trimmed a good number of AAs back to 2-1/2" to make sure I always have enough short shells in case I get lazy and don't reload the all brass ones right away or I am taking 4 friends to a shoot and we are all using my guns. And by the way, you can use smokeless in the all brass shells if you want to. That's how I addressed this issue. I will no longer say with confidence what that "real" chamber length on a 97, or any other pre WWII shotgun actually is. I just use shorter shells in all of them if they need them or not. Problem solved.

Very cool, Watab. Yours looks to be in quite excellent condition. It seems like EVERY major gun maker in England made things based on that Martini action at one time or another. You could probably build quite a collection just by trying to get an example from manufacturers alone! My above shotgun is a Greener, but my .303 is an Enfield, and my Cadet Rifle is BSA. Don't have a .22 yet, or one of the "big bore" ones for the Boer War era, but the more I research the Martini, I just find more people who made them. But, anyway, I assume yours is a 12 gauge? How do you find it to be as a shooter? On another note, I did some research and came across the names of Westley-Richards and Rigby as gun makers that are still in business over there. The W-R guns seem to have prices all over the map, from very affordable to very expensive. And, you can get a factory letter for them, for $270.00! And I thought Colt letters were expensive. Rigby guns on the other hand seem to all have a 5 figure price tag, and their factory letters go for 100 pounds a pop. I doubt that I'll ever have a Rigby in my collection. If I was gonna spend that kind of money, it'd be for a high grade Parker in pristine condition. But I doubt I'll ever spend that kind of money on a single gun. A W-R? Well, if the price is right and there was something about it I found interesting, I'd not rule one out, even factoring in the cost of the letter. It does seem that English guns tend to be rather expensive. Given the heavy restrictions on ownership over there, I wonder how they can stay in business.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's a Model 3 top break. They were made up until 1940-41. I would also guess that yours is a late production one, and that it's safe for smokeless. That's a ballpark estimate based on what we see in your pictures, and my admittedly limited knowledge of the things. Hopefully someone with more knowledge and I can confirm this.

What is stamped on the top of the barrel? Pics of any and all markings would help. Also take off the grips and let us see what's in there.

Let us talk about Made in England Shotguns, either SxS or Single Shot ones that can be used our game. I know this would be something of a niche interest, but well, John Wayne used a Greener in Big Jake, so, the concept is a valid one. Now, there are a lot of different companies that made shotguns like this, back in the day, and some of them still do. Prices for these things range from a few hundred to tens of thousands of dollars, depending on make and model. Now, I think that it's safe to say that none of us are gonna be using something with a $10,000 plus price tag in our game. But you know, I have a Parker Trojan that I got for $700 in 2019. It's in good shootable condition, it just doesn't look all that great. I recently saw one just like it in every way that looks factory new, and was had an asking price of over $20,000. So, I would venture to say that even among the premium English makes and models, they can be found for an affordable price, depending on condition. So with all of that said, what are the English shotguns that could, at least theoretically, make their way into our game? Well, the aforementioned Greener, of course. Webley and Scott also comes to mind. I am sure there are many others, but since I am not an expert, I can't rattle off a plethora of different makers off the top of my head. Just staying with those two makers, I have seen prices all over the place from very affordable to super expensive depending on various factors. For a Greener, have one of those police shotguns based on the Martini action, in standard 12 gauge. It's not a bad gun. Shoots well, and makes for a fun and unusual change of pace from time to time. Not exactly what most people will think of when you say the name "Greener," but it is a nice gun. On a somewhat more conventional note, I have a Webley model 100 single shot. Got for $150 last year, and it's the kind of a gun that you would expect to go for that kind of money. I don't mean "cheap," I mean simple and nothing special about it. I have developed an affinity for single shot shotguns of this type, partly because many of them can be had for very short money, but you can tell that it is a well made gun. Clearly meant for rugged use as a hunting gun, I really like it. It's not exactly easy to cock that small hammer, but the gun is fun to use from time to time. Now, I have to admit that even though that's all I have, I have begun to become interested in Webley shotguns. I'd like to get a nice SxS, and I have noticed that while they can be stupid expensive, they can also be very affordable, so something is within reach should I come across the right candidate. I guess time will tell if I go further down this road. So does anyone else ever use an English shotgun, either a single or double barreled one? If so, what do you have/use and what has been your experience with it? On a final note, research reveals that the "Greener" in Big Jake isn't one. It's an "American Gun Company" gun. Gee... It seems you can't trust Hollywood!

Dang it. I've been itching to acquire one of these for a while now for various reasons. Hearing this statement just gives me another excuse to do so more quickly.

The only way I know how to outrun a gun is to have the rifle fired by a genius coyote and then, just as the bullet is about to reach the Road Runner, he looks over his shoulder, sees it, and runs even faster, leaving the bullet far, far behind.

Ah, that might be true in general, but legally speaking, for firearms, antique has a different meaning. An antique firearm is defined by law as one made in or before 1898, or a muzzle loader, even if it's brand new. Legally, they are not even guns according to Federal law.. No gun ever becomes an antique with age. Only those made before the date are. And yeah, it's the same for cars. It varies from state to state, but I think in every state there is an option to register a car as an antique after a certain age. There are both benefits and restrictions to doing so. It's at least 20 years, and as many as 45 in other states..

Hey, now that's an interesting idea. Anyone who can document that the age of their guns equals exactly 250 gets five bucks off the cost of the shoot.

So it sounds like the Stoger is the most commonly seen SxS. I guess that's fair. From what I have seen, they are well made, rugged guns. Makes sense that they would be rising to the top. With regards to the Winchester 94, while there are certainly MUCH better guns than it, I think it has something of an undeserved bad reputation. IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. Generically, comparing a pre and post '83 94 in .30-30, I can say that the later guns are something that I do not, and will not own. I can see how combining an already poorly made gun with a cartridge not made for the action would be a very bad combination. However, if you are lucky enough to own one of those pre-83 94's in .44 Magnum, it's actually not all that bad. Here's proof. Just ignore the Shotgun part... And for an apples to apples comparison, here's a Rossi 92 in the same caliber. Again, ignore the shotgun. Now, i am no speed demon. Maybe a better shooter would notice more of a difference, but both guns seemed to work equally well for me. The 92 has been gone over by Happy Trails, and the 94 is factory stock.

Ditto to that! I've got a pair of Colts and at least 4 rifles to choose from. Five if it does not have to have an exposed hammer. I've even got a single shot .410 if that's a requirement for when shooting .22's.

I've been shooting all brass hulls in my 97 for years.

BHs?

I am gonna speak in very general terms here. I know that other things are very popular with a lot of people, but at the end of the day, this is what I have seen at the range for the most commonly used guns in our game.... Revolvers: The Colt SAA or copies thereof. Rifle: Winchester 73 or copies thereof. Shotgun: Uhm... Yeah, what IS the most commonly seen shotgun? It seems to be pretty evenly split between the 97 and a SxS, with the double maybe having a slight edge, but I am not sure. But then, that brings up the final question; what is the most commonly seen SxS? And I mean that very literally. What is the SxS that you are more likely to see than any other? Not talking about the "best" or your personal favorite. When I shoot a SxS, I usually shoot a Parker, and while I don't think a finer SxS has ever been made by anyone, you don't see a lot of them getting used in our game. Now, usually, I shoot a 97, so maybe I am just not looking close enough to see what kind of doubles are getting the most use, but I have recently begun to wonder about it. Is there any one make/model of SxS shotgun (original or replica) that can honestly claim the "most common" title the way the Colt and Winchester can? Again, not what do you use, or what do you think is truly the "Best Shotgun Ever..." but just, what do you see people using at shoots? As I think about it, I can't even say that I have noticed a preference for hammered vs. hammerless. At least around here, you seem to be as likely to see either type. So, what DO people see at the range more than any other, or does no one single option rise up significantly higher than the rest?

Actually, that was my point. All you need is the 4 guns for a main match. But if you want to, there are a lot of variations that you can acquire for the sheer fun of it. Especially when you consider all the options for side matches. You can, if you have a mind, build a whole substantial collection around JUST guns for CAS if you have a mind to do so. I didn't even factor in every model of Winchester, Marlin, Colt, Parker, LC Smith, S&W, Remington and other gun makers or replicas thereof that you can get into the weeds with. Add potential different calibers, and the head soon begins to spin!

So the M1899/M&P/Victory/Model 10 is a K Frame? And where exactly do the Model 1, 1-1/2, 2, and 3 fit in? 🤔

Place names Massachusetts (and in fact all of New England) have bizarre pronunciations. If you think that Worcester and Dorchester rhyme, you would be wrong. If you think Peabody is pronounced "pee-body" you would be wrong. If you think Concord is pronounced Concorde, you'd be wrong. If you think Scituate is pronounced Skit u it, you'd be wrong. If you think that Holyoke is pronounced Holy oak, you'd be wrong. If you think Billerica is pronounced the way it's spelled, you'd be wrong. If you think Berlin is pronounced the same as the capital of Germany, you'd be wrong. I could go on, but I won't.

I'd've thought that was rather obvious.

Yep! I always thought the way you used it makes perfect sense. Most people don't mean it that way when they say it, but it's actually quite profound if you do.

I never could keep track of the S&W Letter Frame Designations. They just confuse me. I know they are related to frame size/caliber but I could never remember which letter was which size. On the other hand, Model Designations are much easier for me to keep track of. That's a quirk of my mind I guess. But, based on what people are calling N frames in the above pics, (and quick check of Wikipedia) I guess I do have some that qualify. .357 Magnum model 586. Letters to 1983. Model 1917, .45 ACP. Brazilian Army Surplus. Letters to 1938. Model 29-9 .44 Magnum. Don't have the letter yet, it's pending. In truth, I am surprised I don't have more of these things. Then again, I do have 5 1899/M&P/Model 10/Victory Model revolvers in 3 different calibers. That one is fun do to it's ever changing name!

I once said in the first grade, "You should've seen it!" The teacher corrected me and said, "Should have." I looked at her with genuine confusion. "That's what I said. S H O U L D apostrophe V E." She didn't like me very much.