H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Posts posted by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:
Easier and most likely cheaper to just reline the barrel with the caliber you want.
Okay, that is the question that I was wondering about. Would it be easier, and less expensive, to swap barrels, or line the existing one.
I had guessed the swapping would be simpler, but then again, would a 92 barrel fit on a 73, or need major modifications. But relining might work out to be a simpler modification.
It's an interesting bit of wonderment. -
Let's say you want a .25-20 rifle, but you don't want a Winchester 92 or a Marlin 94. You want a Winchester 73 or a Colt Lightning.
Now, correct me if I am wrong.
The easiest way to do it is get a "donor" gun in .32-20. Most likely a modern Italian replica, and not an original. Since the .25-20 is just the .32-20 necked down to .25 caliber, all you need do is swap out the barrel. (Assuming that you can find one that fits.)
For some reason, while this seems like it's all you'd have to do, something inside me tells me there'd be more too it than that.
Of course, if the replica makers would just market the rifles in the caliber, that'd be even easier, but I don't see that ever happening.
At the moment, this is purely an academic thought experiment. -
Here's a related question that just occurred to me.
Taking a revolver and somehow converting it to a cartridge that they have never been chambered for by the people who made/make it.
An example is my Colt above in .22 Hornet.
But it would not have to be limited to "unusual" calibers. S&W and Uberti have never made any of the Model 3 revolvers in .32-20. Converting one would be an expensive, but interesting proposition. I have seen picture of a Merwin & Hulbert in .25-20 and have heard of others trying it. So anyway, let's add this possibility to the discussion, and see if anyone has anything to add.
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1 hour ago, Three Foot Johnson said:
The cartridge was a .357 mag case (?) necked down to .25 caliber. Ruger made a single shot pistol for it, the Hawkeye, that resembled a Blackhawk, and Thompson Center also made a barrel for it. I'm pretty sure I've got a TC barrel. I think Marlin may have made a lever action for it too.
Thanks, Three Foot.
I looked it up. Interesting stuff. Thanks for the details. By a strict reading of the rules, it would not be main match legal, even in a rifle, but looks like a fun round. I'd assume you'd have to work up a handload for it to keep the velocity down, a necked down .357 with a light bullet like that would be pretty speedy. Still, if I can download .22 Hornet to "SASS Velocities" just for the fun of doing it, I'd guess this one could be done as well.
And, in a theoretical single shot side match that allows "anything from .22 Short to .50-70" then the Ruger and the round would be "okay."
I like learning about unusual stuff like this. I doubt I'd search one out today, but if I knew of it when it came out, I might have considered grabbing one and a buncha ammo. -
I suddenly understand the problem!
I don't actually think there is anything wrong with your gun mechanically. Maybe just that the magazine spring, as alluded to by a previous post, could stand to lose a coil or two.
I had something very similar happen to me with one of my AWA Lightnings. Getting rounds 9 and especially 10 was very difficult, and had a problem similar to yours.
I discovered there was a spacer in the mag tube to limit capacity. Once to took that out, the problem went away. You obviously don't have a spacer, but a too long spring might be the culprit. -
3 hours ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:
Hey what about a 256 Mag? Although a single shot it appears to be a six shooter. Please don't flame me. Just stirring the pot ...
Since I don't know what that is, how about a pic?
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I applaud the advice and work done to fix the issue. Bravo to all around.
But to be honest, as I read it all over and try to make sense of it, and fail to do so, I interpret all of it the same way...
Take it to a gunsmith.
But then again, I am not good at fixing things by hand myself. -
The problem with the 49 Colt is that there is no way to lock the cylinder between chambers. The above 49 is a .38 Long Colt factory conversion. The handbook does say 5 shot revolver can be loaded with 4 and thus the fifth shot loaded on the clock.
As to the "is it a pocket pistol" question, this is something that I feel the rules are ambiguous. The handbook does say that a pocket pistol can't be a converted to a main match pistol. It also says that a pocket pistol has a barrel length of 4" or less. But, no where is a minimum length listed for a main match revolver. Now, obviously we are talking single action pockets here, not the DA pockets most people use. What does "converted" mean? Based on the context and the wording, it seems that you could make the interpretation that "converting" a pocket pistol to main match would refer to one of those alluded to, but never seen, main match stages where a pocket pistol is introduced as an extra gun. If I had used the above 49 in a stage like that, (or the Merwin or the New House) then I could not use them as main match revolvers for the rest of the match. But if I used them from the get go as main match revolvers, no conversion is made.
The Model 1-1/2 above is an excellent illustration of this ambiguity. It's got a 6" barrel. No way it's ever a pocket pistol. But one with a 3" barrel would be. Does that mean the long one is main match legal, but the short one is not? (Well, I mentioned why it's not in general, but I think you see the point.)
Or for that matter, the Remington 63. That's a 5 shot .32 that is described as legal in the handbook. (Generically) But there is no way to argue that it is not legal for pocket side matches. Does that make it not legal for main match use? -
2 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:
The main problem with the '87 is NOT the gun itself, but the silly SAS rules that only allow loading two shells.
Same with the 97. This is a rule that should be revisited.
And don't use the excuse that it's okay if the stage description allows it. Over the years, I have seen this twice. No one writes stages that way. -
3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:
Then ironically, a friend handed me a 97 at his house one day and said.....'try this'.
I immediately started a love relationship with the 97 and its been good for me.
Before I actually got into the game and was learning about it, I read how the 97 was legal. That intrigued me because this really strangle looking old timey pump shotgun was just more visually INTERESTING to me than a double was. (Even though I had my Dad's Parker.)
Anyway, one day, I saw a really nice 97 with a 20" barrel. The stock was stamped WPD, which I "interpret" to stand for Winchester Police Department. This was my first primary main match shotgun, and it served me well. I did eventually get a Cody letter for it, but it's one of their minimal ones that tells you the date it was made and nothing else. (A lot of my Cody letters are that way...) 1930, if you want to know.
Anywho, while enjoying this gun, I decided that I wanted to find and obtain a long barreled 97, just to have one. I eventually did find a 30" full choked one. It's more worn with age, dating to 1909, and again, no other info in the letter. This gun very much feels its age, but is still a good shooter. I had to replace the, (I don't know what it's properly called) think that threads the barrel into the frame that can be adjusted to make the fit tighter. Even at its tightest, it was loose. But with the thing replaced its tight like it should be. But here's the fun part, when I took it to a match the first time to use it, I figured, since everyone "knows" that short barreled shotguns are better suited to our game, that I'd not enjoy using this one. I figured it would be used for Cowboy trap on occasion, but that would be it. Well... That's not what happened. I absolutely loved the long barrel. For one thing, I never missed with it, and the targets always went down every time. Something I could not assert with the shorter barrel version. So, this gun became my new primary main match shotgun.
The next 97 I got was a Norinco replica of the WWI trench gun. Fun thing to stick a bayonet on for a Wild Bunch match. (I've done it!) When the came out, I had mentioned how cool they were to my Dad, and the next thing I knew, he bought me one as a gift.
Up next, I figured that since I'd never own a real Winchester 93, I'd find an obtain a 93/97 to approximate one to have in the collection. Very well made gun. Sadly, not SASS legal, but I still like having it.
But not too long after that, I found an honest to goodness real Winchester 93! This one letters to 1895, the letter does note the 30" barrel, and while the finish is faded, mechanically, it is in superb condition. I don't think it's been fired all that much. I have loaded up some black powder shells for it, and it shoots quite nicely. Oh, and the ONLY way I could get a shell to sorta fall out of the ejection port (using spent shells) so that the extractor could theoretically hit the primer on closing, was to tilt the gun more than 45 degrees to the right when cycling the action. Something I do not do in real life. Again, not SASS legal, but a nice thing to have in the collection.
Then, came my most recent 97. A very nice Black Diamond Trap model. The letter tells me it was made in 1914, and nothing else. But this one is in near perfect condition as far as the action is concerned. Again, I don't think it's been fired all that much. But, it is now, at least officially, my primary main match shotgun. This one gets a lot of commentary once people realize what it is.
Those are my specific 97 stories.
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How do we want to define "Big Bore?" I assume, at the very least, something that can not fit in a standard size main match revolver. But... do we include something like the .30-30, or do we put in a .40+ qualifier?
Personally, I would say go with the anything that won't fit in a standard revolver definition.
That being said, depending on the context of what it is gonna be used for, that will dictate your caliber choice. A .30-30 is great, but it doesn't have the extra long range potential of a .45-70.
But at the "shorter" long ranges that many SASS type events use, .30-30 is more than adequate.
So with that said, there are many options that the shooter can choose from and enjoy.
And since the title of the post is Big Bore Levers, I won't include my .45-70 Rolling Block. (Oops! I just did!)Sears Ted Williams Model 100; .30-30. Better known as a post-83 Winchester 94
J.C. Higgins Model 45; .30-30. Better known as a Sears branded pre-safety Marlin 336C.
Winchester 1894 .32 Winchester Special Pre-64.
Martini Henry AC II Artillery Carbine .303 British. (Hey it IS a lever gun!)
Winchester 1895 .30-40 Krag.
Note: The .303 and the .30-40 will give you much longer range performance than the .30-30 will.
Winchester 1886 .45-70
Chiappa 1886 .45-70. (Yes, I Mares Legged it. But it's still a Big Bore Lever Gun)
Colt Large Frame Lightning .45-85
Depending on what I want to do, and how I want to do it, all of these guns have served me well over the years.
I'll try to add pics when I get home from work. -
I don't think it's the NRA that is the problem, I think it's Wayne. And that's rather sad because for years he was the face of the organization, even more than whoever was the President at the time. And for a very long time, he did a good job. But now, it seems like whatever good he had done has been erased by all of this stuff.
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And now I'll point out that, for me, this is rather ironic as when I started this game, I thought the shotgun would be the part that appealed to me the least. Not saying it's appeals the most now, but only that appreciate its part in the game in a way I had not realized I would all those years ago.
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My .45-70 journey was as follows. First gun was an 1888 Trapdoor rifle. Worked up a "Trapdoor safe" load of, I think it was, 4195, and found it to be a pleasant shooter. Second and third guns were an 1873 Trapdoor carbine and an 1886 Winchester with a 20 inch barrel. Suddenly that trapdoor safe load kicked painfully hard. Switched to Trailboss and the kick vanished. Never looked back. Have more rifles in the caliber and two pistols. It's a great one.
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I tried 10 grains of Red Dot with about 1 ounce of shot.
These were mouse fart loads that don't knock down targets.
Upped to 12. Still no recoil, but now knocks things down. -
Traditionally, I've been a 97 guy. For various reasons, I have been shooting my 87, single and double barrel shotguns a lot more of late. (Doubles and singles each get get 2 categories, with and without external hammers.) In doing so, I have come to realize that each type of shotgun has its own unique level of "fun to shoot" going for it. I am not saying here that any one type is better than another, although for most us, that is probably true. Some folks can run an 87 fast, and others will struggle with it. But I have found that no matter how good or bad I am with each type, I enjoy all of them. Each gives a different experience, and can be rewarding in different ways if you get really good with them. Heck, having come close, I am sure that with practice I could reload a single in time to shoot the popper before it hits the ground. As it was, I got it just afterwards the one time I tried, so who knows? I was surprised how much fun that $50 Hopkins and Allen was overall, and I will use it again. Stepping up to the line with my Dad's 19" Parker makes me feel good, even if the pattern is so wide it doesn't hit hard enough to knock over the targets most of the time. Granted, I am still trying to get rid of some underloaded mouse farts, but there is a way to compensate. I just give it both barrels! Won't do that with proper loads though... The 30" F/F Parker knocks stuff down better with its tighter pattern. I've got a hammered LC Smith I am eager to try for the challenge, and taking the Darne out turns heads every time. The exceedingly rare stage where you are allowed to stoke an 87 or a 97 is always smile inducing when you get to cut loose as fast as you can, and the 87 itself has unique challenges, that once you master them, you get a sense of accomplishment very different from the others.
Variety, they say, is the spice of life. And to my pleasant surprise, I have found that the shotgun can offer a lot of interesting flavors.-
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1 hour ago, Dallas McBoomboom said:
Well, at least I'll have something to obsess about... 🤠
Obsess is perhaps a good word.
I knew someone who had one, whom I knew was selling off many of his guns because he was retiring. I had in fact bought some things from him before. One day, on a whim, I wrote to him and asked if he still had his Lightning Bolt and if he'd be interested in selling it.He was, and he did, for $800.
It was a deal.-
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7 hours ago, Dallas McBoomboom said:
Second, I never knew about the Bolt, and will have to start selling internal organs immediately to finance one.
Well...
You may have a bigger problem than money. Not very many of these Lightning Bolts were made before AWA closed up shop. No one seems to know the exact number, but an excellent article Guns of the Old West magazine was able to confirm the existence of exactly 3 of them in wild, and estimated the total number ever made to be at 15 or less. (I was VERY lucky to obtain mine.) Granted, I have since then seen information that suggests there may be a few more, but we are not talking triple digits here for a total.
I want to start a Lightning Bolt owners society but nobody has responded to the inquiries. I don't know why.
BTW, a picture of my Bolt is shown in the article.
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37 minutes ago, Dallas McBoomboom said:
@H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 I am intrigued by your 45-85, the big frame colts are so cool. I have ridiculous dreams of finding one in 38-56 for less than a three bedroom house. Got Colts in 38-40 and 32-20, AWAs in 38-40 and 44-40, but still chasing a big boy.
When I first started looking at the possibility of a Large Frame Lightning, I was put off by the calibers that it was offered in. They were all ones I'd never heard of! They were all marketed as "Express" calibers, big bullets going at, for the time, very high velocities.
But then I discovered something intriguing about the so called, .45-85-285 cartridge. As it turns out, the .45-85 uses a case the dimensionally identical to the .45-70. Using the much lighter 285 grain bullet instead of the heavier 405 one created a much higher muzzle velocity. WHY Colt did this instead of just chambering it for the very popular .45-70, I do not know. The only difference in the cases is that the 85 uses a small rifle primer for some reason.
Well, suddenly, this became a priority to me. Afterall, .45-70 brass is easy to come by, and I was already set up to load for it. But when I finally got the rifle, I did discover one one other quirk of the cartridge. The .45-70 loaded with a 405 grain bullet is just a tiny but too long to fit through the loading gate. I'd also read that they did the rifling different in this gun, one suited to the high velocity lightweight bullet. Even if you could get 405 grainers to work, they'd be going to slow to work with the rifling.
No problem. I figured 300 grain .45-70 bullets would be close enough. Well, I was right. They were just shorter enough to fit, and the gun is supper accurate out to some pretty decent distances. I am using data for a "Trapdoor safe" loading with the 300 grain bullet, so it works quite well. Once I run out of 405 grainers, I very well may standardize on the 300 just so I don't have to keep track of what is what.
If you really want a Large Frame, this is the caliber I'd recommend. Proviso! These are expensive rifles. I was saving up for 2 years to be able to afford it!
You mentioned .38-56 caliber. I am sure you know that this, in spite of the name, is nothing like the .38-55. The 55 is based on the .30-30. The 56 is based on the .45-70. It IS possible to make .38-56 brass from .45-70 brass, but I don't know how involved the process is. Still, I have SEEN many more of these in the .38-56 than the .45-85, so that might be a way to go. They were also available in .40-60, but at this point, I have no clue what that means. The differences between .40-60 Marlin, .40-60 Colt, 40-60 Winchester and .40-65 Winchester make my head hurt. One source says they are 4 different incompatible cartridges, and another says they are all the same. I'd avoid this caliber simply because I can't make sense of it. They were also in .50-95, but apparently brass for it is now pretty much unobtainium, to say nothing of ammo.
And that's all I know for sure.
Good luck.
For contrast, Large .45-85, Medium .32-20, Small .22 Long
All Colts
The Lightning Bolt pistol is an AWA .45.
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Questions.
1. What is she? (Colt, Uberti, Pietta, something else.)
2. What caliber?
3. How old is she?
4. Why do people not understand that video formats are wider than they they are tall and insist on recording things taller than wide? Especially if the videos are to be viewed on a computer screen. -
9 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:
My comment was directed to those who might be looking for a commercially available, reliable Lightning rifle. It had nothing to do with collectors.
Lucky
One does not necessarily preclude the other.
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8 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:
If you want a Lightning, then you need the Pedersoli;
Hmmm...
I have 3 AWAs.
.45 Colt
.44-40
.45 Colt Lightning Bolt pistol.I also have 4 Colts.
.22 Long.
.32-20.44-40
.45-85Also, Lassiter has a Taurus (his suggestion for it to be the donor) that is being turned into a .44 Special.
But if I really NEED a Pedersoli, I'll have to get one someday. Just need to decide on the caliber. To be honest, if that weird, heavily modernized one in .44 Magnum was available in a standard configuration, I'd already have one.
When all is said and done, I have never had it as a goal to have Lightnings by as many different makers as possible. Rather, I have a desire to have a Lightning in as many different CALIBERS as possible.I guess that means the following...
Of the original calibers, that leaves .38-40. I am not sure which, of any, of the replica makers did that caliber, so it might mean another Colt.
As far as the large frame version goes, I am content with the .45-85 one, which is basically the .45-70 with a lighter bullet. I am not interested is pursuing the various other big calibers. And even if I was, the large frames are so expensive, or the calibers so obscure, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.
Now, as far as other medium frame calibers go, while I have never been generally interested in .38 Special as a main match caliber, I came very close to getting a very fancy AWA in that caliber once that had a kind of silver colored, engraved receiver. This was the way it was made, and I understand it was a specific variation they did on that caliber, not a custom one off. And, it was not all that expensive. I got outbid at the last minute. If I ever find another one, I'll probably go for it. Especially since my AWA .45 Colt runs .45 Schofields no problem. I am curious to learn if one in .38 Special will run .38 Long Colt. If it won't, it's not a deal breaker, but I still wanna find out. I know .357 Magnum was also an option for some of the replicas. I don't know if other calibers were available, or what they would be.
That being said, someone here on the Wire, I can't remember who for sure, I think know who, but don't want to say the name in case I am wrong, mentioned that he was building himself one in .32 H&R Magnum. (I honestly wonder if it would run .32 S&W Longs) Well anyway, if he ever decides that he doesn't want it anymore, I hope he'll give me first crack at buying it off of him.
Now that of course brings up the idea of custom created ones in calibers of special interest. If I could get one, .38 S&W would be great. So would .45 ACP, or .45 Autorim. And this point, I better shut up. I am starting to look at seriously expensive things, and that's not a good idea. -
I am curious. When it comes to cannelured brass, I've noticed that sometimes the cannelure is very prominent, and at other times, you gotta look twice cuz it's so faint.
But I have to admit, I've never had a case split at the cannelure. What causes the splitting? There's gotta be something other than the cannelure itself that it causing the brass to fail.-
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B.S.A. Factory Letter
in SASS Wire
Posted
Well, as you may remember from some other posts/threads, I have been trying to get "factory letters" for everything in the collection that I can.
We all know that many US gun makers do offer historical documentation, but I have not been able to find many European ones that do. There are a couple, but not a lot. The Paul Mauser Archive has records for Mauser made Pistols and the Webley Scott Archive can get you a letter for Webley pistols, but not shotguns, for example.
So, today, on a whim, I Googled "BSA Firearms factory letter," and I found a reference for a John Knibbs International that said they have BSA's old records, and they do offer historical research documentation. So, I Googled John Knibbs International, and found this link https://www.airgunspares.com
At first, I didn't think it was all that promising, but on the FAQ page, I found this...
Q) How do I know how old my BSA gun is?
A) We hold most of the original handwritten serial number ledgers for sporting rifles that BSA kept during their production period up to the late seventies. We can offer a dating service (no, not that sort!) of your BSA gun if required. This process is quite time consuming as we have to trawl through numerous ledgers to locate the exact serial number of the weapon so a fee is payable for the service. Please contact us if you would like to know the exact day (sometimes as precise as morning or afternoon) that a gun left the BSA factory.
Well, that sounds promising! I have written to ask them if they can look up my BSA made Martini. If/when I find out what they charge, I'll let you all know.