H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

The more I think about it, the more clear it is to me that the pistol(s) in question for this club, while they do have only 5 holes in the cylinder, don't necessarily have to be "four shooters." The whole point it encourage people to use some of the more unusual guns that are legal in our game. Requiring a button mag rifle (Or a Spencer)? Nah. Don't wanna make it TOO comlicated. Although I will say that I have shot a couple of matches with a single barrel shotgun. It was fun. But that's not part of this club. But the operative slogan is; have fun!

Prove what?

5 Pistol Wales sounds like fun too. I've got a converted 1860 to finish the battery out, I guess.

I've wanted a cartridge converted Paterson in .38 S&W ever since I saw one on the cover of Guns of the Old West magazine a few years ago.

That's why you use a pistol that doesn't have the safety notch. Then they can't chastise you! Embrace the crazy!

Nah, yer still welcome I just wanted to make sure you understood what I meant. It iS rather ridiculous after all. I mean, sure, one pistol I use could very well be a cartridge converted 1860 that CAN be safely loaded with 5. But my second pistol would be... Uhm... Something I have to obtain that can only safely loaded with 4. See? FUN! This is absolute silliness. But, it would "encourage" people to occasionally use guns that the handbook says are legal but most of us never think to try using because they are just not practical. And variety is a good thing. no matter how goofy it might be.

I think you are missing the point. You purposely use a "5 shot" revolver that you load with 4 because you choose to do so to be "different." That 5th shot has to be loaded on the clock because it is "unsafe" to load all 5 chambers. It's not meant to be a serious alternative. Something purely for fun. Sure, you can use a 5 shooter with a safety notch, but that kinda defeats the purpose.

I think next time I try Josey Wales, my left pistol will be a converted Walker. My right pistol will be a converted Dragoon. My first rifle will be the Big Iron, and the second rifle will be the Buntline New Frontier. All .45s.

I creating a new club for 5 shooters. Anyone can join. It's totally free. It's completely unofficial, and it should be a lot of fun for people who like to be different. No, I don't mean it is for a grand total of five people. I mean for people who like to shoot revolvers with only 5 holes in the cylinder, which according to the handbook are legal. You just have to either rest the hammer on a safety notch, or load 'em with just four cartridges and add the 5th one on the clock. This is for people who wanna have fun shooting unusual guns, and who don't mind probably winding up near the bottom of the standings. The benefit is that you get to brag about how you used an incredibly impractical gun, and somehow managed to finish the shoot. To be a member of this club, you must, obviously, have at least one, preferably two, 5 shot revolvers, and after suffering through the match with one shot loads on the clock, you must post here on the Wire that you did it, and give an assessment of how you did. But if you manage to shoot a clean match, you MUST brag on that fact. AND, you get to call yourself a member of the 5 Shooters Club. This is all meant in a spirit of fun, has no real "status" of any kind, and even if there wind up being a lot of us, odds are that most of us will never shoot a match together. So, if anyone thinks this sounds like silly fun, you are cordially invited to join. Maybe if enough of us try it, we can create our own badge or some such nonsense. Anyone care to join?

A couple Saturdays ago, a local club, the Danvers Desperadoes, offered an option to shoot the match Josey Wales style, and I tried it. I had a lot of fun. I decided to shoot the match with .44 Specials. A pair of Colt Clones, a real Colt Buntline Special, and a reproduction S&W American. I used the clones for the pistols and the Buntline and the American for the rifles. I... Didn't do so well... I found that I could not hit the broadside of a barn with the American for some reason. Now, I have two Americans One has an 8" barrel and is a .45 Colt. I have shot a clean match with it. The one I used for a "rifle" is a .44 Special with a 5" barrel. I don't know if the caliber was the problem, the gun, or both. (Well, the problem was me, of course, but what I mean is, why did I have a problem.) I was told by the TO that it seemed to be shooting high. I'll try the gun again soon just as a pistol and see if the shorter range makes a difference with being able to hit things. I of course, had no problem with the Buntline... If I ever do Josey again, I'll probably use my Big Iron, and a New Frontier Buntline, both of which are .45's. 10" and 12" barrels respectively. All in all, I am glad I got a chance to try this unofficial category. I had fun, but unless I can find a gun combination where I at least have a chance to shoot it clean, I don't know if I'll automatically try it when it is offered. And I just remembered that I have a New Frontier .44 Special with a 7.5" barrel. I shoulda used that gun! Oh well, live and learn.

Me either! The Wiki article says it was a regular option, if not a common one.

Well, I found a really nice one of these pistols and it came in the FedEx today. When I found the listing for this one with the unusual 6" barrel, I knew it was the one for me. The finish is nearly flawless, and the star on the back of the cylinder indicates that it it was redone at the factory. I'll be lettering it ASAP. There are some very minor blemishes in a couple of spots, but looks great. Mechanically, it IS flawless. Almost like it's never been fired. Trigger is nice, and I think it's a really nice gun. .32 S&W is the caliber. I look forward to shooting it soon.

Oh yeah. That's when you take a Winchester 92, remove the forestock, brass the receiver, and wahlah! You've got yourself a Henry!

I have never thrown away a name badge from a big match. But I have not been careful about keeping them all together. I regret that.

Another thread got me to thinking. (DANGER!) Over the years, I have seen a lot of different pins that different shooters, well, pin to their costumes. Not everyone does so, but those who do have all kinds of different things. I am going to deliberately not include the SASS Badge, but anything else that you would affix to your attire would count. I've seen clean match pins, various custom badges, the SASS Cowboy logo pin and lotsa other stuff. So that being said, let's share our pins! They can be ones you wear all the time, or only for special occasions. What do we have? I'll start the ball rolling... These are my clean match pins. The EoT one was the first clean match I ever shot. Twice I have shot the Tri-State clean. And Clean Mini Match pin has an interesting story. One year, I shot the mini match clean. But there was no clean mini-match pin. So, I went out and bought a big bag of mini clean match pins and donated them with the proviso that while anyone who shot the mini-match clean going forward would of course get one, anyone who remembered shooting it clean last year could claim one as well. This is my badge of shame. But, I am happy to say that the NRA Colt has been repaired! I may wear the badge when using it in the future. And finally.... I wear this badge when I use this gun. Guess why! So what else do people pin to their vest/shirt as the fancy suits them?

I have shot double duelist since I started this game. So that would be for almost 20 years. Now that I read this thread, I realize that it is not very common. Most duelists do seem to shoot both pistols with the same hand, either via the twist or drawing and transferring. Interesting.

See title of thread.

Well, that is something that I have wondered about, but not too much. As I read the rules, I think it would be main match legal, with the conversion cylinder in place. Let's look at the handbook... A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length of four inches or less. Pocket pistols must be .31 caliber or larger. Model “P” Colts and clones and revolvers with swing out cylinders are specifically not allowed regardless of caliber, frame size, or barrel length. Colt Model 1877 DA revolvers are LEGAL for use as pocket pistols. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers. Okay, as a cap an ball revolver, this gun clearly meets the definition of a pocket pistol. It it also meets the definition of a pocket pistol as a cartridge gun. Let's look at the handbook again... Revolver Requirements Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition. The rules relative to SASS approved revolvers depend upon the competition category in which one participates. Sights are a major factor for determining in which category a revolver may be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of revolver and ammunition be used. Please see the shooting categories for further information. No more than two main match revolvers may be carried to the firing line. Revolver Calibers - Must be centerfire cartridges of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. - Must be in a cartridge commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt. (Includes some semi-auto pistol cartridges, e.g. 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP) Notice the following, .32 caliber is legal. With the conversion cylinder in place, this is a .32 S&W, a .32 caliber cartridge. Remember, what we "call" .32's, .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, .32 Short and Long Colt, .32 Magnum and .32-20 ALL used a .312" bullet. That's closer to .31 than .32, and two of those rounds are specifically stated to be legal. So I don't think the 63 Remington is a problem from a caliber direction. Also, no minimum barrel length is listed for main match revolvers. I have a couple of Iver Johnson top breaks. One has a 3.5" barrel. One has a 6" barrel. They are otherise identical. One is pocket legal, the other is not, based on barrel length. The reverse is not true for main match revolvers. I have Colt SAA's from 3 to 12 in barrels, and all are legal. Nor is a minimum frame size stated. Now, if the 63 Remington were to be used by someone as a pocket pistol in a side match, or in a rare main match stage where one is called for, then no, it could not be used as a main match revolver for the rest of the match. But if it is not used as a pocket gun, there is nothing in the rules as written, that would forbid it. It's not DA, for example, and again, no minimum size is required. Now, what about the fact that it is "called" a pocket pistol in its name? So are several Colt cap and ball revolvers that are perfectly legal for main match use that, while admittedly larger than the Remington and would mostly not qualify due to their barrels being too long, they are still CALLED pocket guns. So the name of the pistol is not a factor in determining its suitability for main match use. I would submit that based on all of the above, including a LITERAL reading of the rules, (what other way is there to read them?) that the 63 Remington when cartridge converted to .32 S&W is a main match legal firearm, as long as it has not been used as a pocket pistol in some fashion. This feels oddly similar to the old arguments about if a short barreled Colt 1877 was legally a pocket pistol or not, just in reverse. But let that go. I have no desire to make this a regular main match gun. I just thought it would be cool to have. Yes I would like to at least once TRY is as a main match gun, and if I like it, I might use it once in a blue moon, but I would not likely be making a regular thing of it.

Well, I picked one up today, along with the .32 S&W conversion cylinder from Taylors. I find it it be a rather neat little pistol. First, the tigger is actually pretty decent. There is a lot of creep, but it's not heavy at all, as is often the case with a spur trigger. On the other hand, the hammer spring is very heavy. It is nicely smooth on the cocking, but you really gotta pull hard on it. I will probably have that adjusted some. And, I need to have some work done to the cartridge cylinder. The hole for the cylinder pin apparently narrows from front to back; the pin only goes about three quarters of the way down the channel before it will go no further. Also, just to confirm this, I tried putting it in "backwards," the pin will not ever the hole from the rear. It does fit through the hole in the cap just fine. In any event, I am looking forward to to shooting the gun, and seeing how it performs. All in all, I am glad I got it. Total cost is, in reality, not that much, so I am happy with it.

From a historical standpoint, the term "Pocket Pistol" is maddeningly confusing. Today, we think of the term as referring to a small pistol that can be carried concealed by dropping it into your pocket. But when you look at some of the revolvers that were made back in the day, while there were some very small revolvers that you could do that with, there were also more than a few models that this would have been impossible for. I posit, that there are three ways that this can be understood. 1. Pocket Pistol or Pocket Revolver was just a generic term for a smaller framed pistol. It had nothing to do with if the pistol could be carried concealed. 2. These pistols were intended to be carried in your pocket, not a holster, and again, concealability was not a factor. 3. People had much larger pockets back in the day. Now, here are some factors to consider. In many places, "carrying a concealed weapon" was a crime. There was no prohibition on open carry, but deliberately hiding it could get you in trouble. Also, when you look at a gun such as the Colt "1849 Pocket" revolver, with a 6" barrel, this is not a gun made to be hidden. It's smaller frame would allow for it to be carried in a pocket, with the grip sticking out. In other words, it was small enough to not require a holster to be carried, but was still not really concealable. Other guns of the era of approximately the same size were also marketed as "pocket" guns. Some were smaller, some were larger but they all had the "pocket" designation. Compare that to a 4-3/4" Colt Peacemaker or something of similar size. You can stick it in your pocket, but it is likely to fall out. It's just too big to fit. I don't have any old west vintage pants, or replicas, so I don't know if they had larger pockets back then. On the other hand, Levi's did exist back in the day, and they have not changed that much, especially with regard to pocket size. On a related note, in the SASS World, Pocket Pistol is clearly defined, but there are guns made back then that were marketed as pocket pistols that would not be pocket pistol side match legal, mostly due to the barrel being too long. And there are probably some pistols that could arguably be either pocket pistols or main match pistols. Yes, the handbook says pocket pistols may not be converted to main match pistols, and that is logical, especially since most pocket pistols in our game are double action. But there are a few single action pistols that could go either way. That being said, I am not trying to get into that nebulous area of is it a large pocket pistol or a small main match pistol. I bring all this up because I want to be clear that the contents of this specific paragraph are not what I am talking about. Instead, I am wondering what the term pocket pistol meant from roughly 1840 to 1940, when production of the last vestiges of old west "pocket" guns finally ceased.

I could be wrong, but I thought the bore on those things was .375". Either way, when I load .38 Long Colt, or .38 Short Colt, I use a 150 grain, .358" RNHB bullet, and it catches the rifling quite well with both smokeless and black powder loads. I also use this bullet in for .38 S&W nickeled Winchester brass that "bulges" with .360" bullets to the point that it won't chamber. This is the only brass I have found that has this problem.

That is correct. A nice "inaccurate reproduction" would be the baby Russian sized gun, but chambered in .32 S&W so it could be loaded with 5 with the hammer on an empty chamber. Historically, the Baby Russian and the 1-1/2 were in .38 and .32 S&W respectively, and both were 5 shot cylinders. Or, perhaps both in their proper 5 shot configuration and caliber, but with a safety notch of some kind. Doubt we'll ever see it.

Those tip up ones are quite interesting pistols in their own right. I wish someone would make a reproduction in .32 S&W. But I doubt it'll ever happen. And while we are at it, there is apparently a .38 version if the pistol in my initial post, the so called "Baby Russian." As I think about it, while it is obvious to think of .32's when it comes to small pistols, the ones in .38 S&W are essentially in the same class as these. But I am specifically thinking about single actions. Partly because they are not as commonly ubiquitous as the double action pocket pistols of the era.

I recently brought up the Remington 1863 revolver for discussion. I would now like to bring up a comparable pistol made by Smith and Wesson, the model 1-1/2 top break. It looks like this... Unlike the Remington, the S&W was made from the get go as a cartridge gun, and it was the first gun chambered for the .32 S&W cartridge. They are five shot revolvers. But they seem to be the same "class" of pistol; small frame, small caliber, single action, and even the spur trigger. So, does anyone shoot one of these guns? They were marketed up until the 1910's, if the information I have read is correct, but I do not know if the frames were all made prior to 1898 like their larger cousins. I have recently become "interested" in these smaller single action revolvers by various makers and am in the process of learning more about them. And they don't all have spur triggers. Some of the smaller cap and ball Colts, for example. Anyway, any thoughts on this, the Smith & Wesson, would be welcome.

Pietta makes a replica of the Remington 1863 cap and ball revolver. It looks like this... It's a 5 shot. Taylors makes a conversion cylinder for it in .32 S&W. Five shot with a safety notch so you can load all five chambers. Anybody ever shoot one of these things? Either with or without the conversion? I think they are kinda nifty looking.