Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Posts posted by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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You won't get much lower cost loading your own shells than the pricing of factory shotshells. BUT, you can get lower recoil and the satisfaction of loading your own from cranking out shotshells. Look for the lowest price you can on shot. That is the price driver. If you have a local trap/skeet/clays club, check with them for deals on shot. Even reclaimed shot works great for SASS.
By far the easiest, widely available powder to make a low-recoil 1 ounce load is Hodgdon Clays (or Clay Dot from Alliant). Both are now starting to be available again at most vendors. Combine that with a one ounce wad and your favorite hull, and you are well on your way.
Good luck, GJ
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One can usually get away with bending (reprofiling) the existing hammers. Changing out a hammer, assuming you can find on that will work and has a general shape like guns of the Old West, will probably never be questioned. Knocking off sharp "birds beaks" on hammers to make them safe to run - has been allowed forever.
Internal mods like working over or replacing springs - perfectly acceptable per rules.
If your gut tells you you're close to the edge of the rules, you can submit a request to the Rules Committee for a ruling on the external mods you are thinking about. That's the only sure way to get the answer that will stand up "in SASS court"
Good luck, GJ
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If I have a high primer, I would estimate that 90 % are old winchester brass. If I disassemble the round and run it thru again, the primer is flat. Wonder why?
Winchester's primer pockets are often just slightly tighter than other US made brass. I've seen the same on .45 Colt and .38 special. The second time, you are paying a lot more attention to seating that primer firmly. That time, it goes in.
Good luck, GJ
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Did any of you "nay-sayers" consider the man wants what he wants?
The OP may WANT a highly customized gun. He may not be able to get that from ANYONE that we know about. He may not even be able to GET it at all.
When a feller asks for advice on this wire, and the advice is given, and it's not necessarily what he wants to hear, but it may be what he needs to hear, there's not a real good reason to complain about it. Folks are not saying it CAN'T be done, we are saying we don't know smiths willing to take on the task. Most of the smiths we know, do "simple modifications to cowboy guns for men who want to shoot fast." (To paraphrase Nick in It's a Wonderful Life).
Take the free advice given, and move on from there.
If he wants to check with Lonnie at Run-N-Iron in Nebraska, they do a lot of "high end customization and restoration" for lever guns. As does Turnbull's in Connecticut. Those will be long shots with little chance of getting satisfaction, but there might be a small chance.
Good luck, GJ
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My plan is to stockpile the empties into a bin marked with the number of times they've been reloaded. Once fired in a bin until I need to reload, then segregate the twice loaded until I need to work them into the rotation. After the once fired are all shot and the bin is full, they get reloaded and go into a twice fired, and etc.
We'll see ...
CR
Yep, that can work too. Prepare 50 bins.
But it also means you have to track the loaded cartridges with a label, too. The bookkeeping may make you depressed. Have some Christmas Cheer! I'd buy you one if I were in Illowa! GJ
But then, I am an Illdianatucky native myself. Winter depression seemed the norm when I was back there.
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Just load them like your ACP's and you won't have to change your powder drop^
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IMHO, Some of the worst advice for loading ammo that I have seen on this wire. (If you take this advice literally)
Loading C45S to the same loading data and pressures as standard .45 auto loads - will be above the pressure rating for SAA clones! And you will have way too much recoil.
Drop down to light .45 auto rim load data and you will be more likely to get the light recoil that C45S was designed to provide!
For example, a light .45 auto load I make for Wild Bunch, uses a 200 grain bullet and let's say, 5 grains of "an appropriate" pistol powder. What I load with that same powder in C45S cases is a 175 grain bullet and about 4.4 grains of powder. Now, this is a slightly modified example of what I do, but if I were to load "like my ACPs" I would be making some real hot loads. A C45S load for most single-action revolvers should be quite a bit milder than what you would shoot in a .45 auto pistol. (Original design Ruger Vaqueros, though, will be able to handle it. I even have a .45 AUTO CYLINDER for my old Ruger Blackhawk)
Good luck and keep all your fingers and your TO's eyeballs! GJ
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But as you stated the Henry 1860 is way over priced .That's what American labor costs to build a American made product.
But, Miroku makes, in Japan, a VERY fine '73 at the same prices as Uberti. A US manufacturer could do it too if they were willing and able to front the machine and tooling and engineering costs. So, don't really buy that cost of labor argument.
Good luck, GJ
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Don't know anyone that want's to work on them !!!
Jabez Cowboy
Ditto. At any price.
There just are not parts made to support what you want, so stuff has to be carved out of stock. Beaucoup expensive anymore. There's just not enough interest amongst gun owners to have a highly customized Henry Big Boy for a smith to get good at working on them.
That much work on a gun that is relatively cheap to begin with, starts to look like a potential loss-of-good-will for most smiths. They just can't see charging 2-3 times what the gun's value is, then possibly have the customer come back later and complain that they can't recoup the price of the custom work. Not saying you would, but how's a gunsmith going to know that? "Like making a silk purse out of a sow's ear" would probably be their reaction.
Good luck, GJ
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ANY powder usable for the .45 ACP for an appropriate 160-180 grain LEAD bullet is good for the C45S cartridge.
I used 160-180 grain bullets with Clays and Red Dot for 3+ years and loved it.
I have recently tried Clean Shot and also found it a good powder choice.
And these powders were used in my Ruger 3.5" barrel pistols.
I haven't tried any of those powders you listed, so therefore, I don't have much to say about them in the C45S case.
..........Widder
Ditto.
My powder selections in C45S have been 700-X, RedDot and Win WST. Of those, WST burns most clean and meters accurately. If you want a load with any of those, let me know.
Good luck, GJ
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My .45 Colt Starline brass seems to never wear out. Been reloaded so many times I've lost track. 44-40 seems to last around 15 or so reloadings before I start to see splits. .45 CS about the same. Just putting 3,500 Cowboy Specials into circulation with the intention of tracking the # of times it's been reloaded. Easy to do - in principle. Call me in 5 years & I'll let you know how that worked out
CR
The most successful brass trackers seem to rely on a physical mark on the case rim to record the count of uses. Like a notch filed with a jewelers triangular file each time you load it. Hard part is finding those marked cases every time they come in to be loaded. Perhaps some brass blacking on the head, or a stripe up the case?
Good luck, GJ
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Dang, winter starts tomorrow, pards! Post is a couple days early.
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The hassle factor will be high enough to discourage you even if the cost is not. Sending him money to buy his own is much easier.
Good luck, GJ
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Starline has a life that, with .45 Colt or .38 Special, exceeds most brands, including R-P. Slightly better than Winchester. Even in sloppy .45 Colt chambered rifles, I usually get about 25 cycles. In .38 special, too many cycles to even try to count.
The only Starline cartridge case that fails fast for me has been Cowboy .45 Special. I don't think they have the case annealing right on these, as they only run in revolvers about 5 times before a split at the middle of case, running half the length of the overall case length, develops. I get life more like 10 cycles from a used .45 Colt case trimmed down!
There are a few nickel plated Starlines around. I don't try to count cycles on them because there are so few in my herd. But I have better life with their nickel cases, too, than I do any other nickel plated cases. Just not as good as the unplated brass cases.
Good luck, GJ
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I just wish they were all screwed up "the same way" rather than a mystery, every time you get into one. They're all soooo different!
You talking guns now, or did the subject change?
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I thought these turkeys were supposed to be the cats pajamas right outta the box! For the price, they ought to shoot themselves. (LOL)
ALL cowboy guns are kits almost ready to fire.
Price has little to do with it. If the gun looks good and moves off the shelf, it's "good enough" and now someone else's problem (other than the manufacturer).
Good luck, GJ
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I don't see why it couldn't be made to shoot .45 colt.The Winchester Angle Eject 94's were chambered for a while in .45 Colt and .357 as well as .44 mag, as NKJ and I discussed above. I've still got a Trapper version of those 94's in .45 Colt. It was ok (other than being only a 9 shot magazine) for the first match I went to. I didn't go to my second SASS match until I had a 73.
They can be made to SHOOT .45 Colt and other pistol cartridges. They just can't be made to feed those cartridges in a slick and reliable manner.Good luck, GJ
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By "38" I suppose you mean .38 special/.357?
1. It would be a ton of work.
2. Since the 94 is a long action, it is way longer than the 92, which is the design that it takes to feed pistol cartridges. Winchester themselves cannot even make the 94 length action feed .45 Colt or .38 special well.
You will be MUCH better off starting with a gun that does not need $1000 of gunsmith tinkering before it feeds well. Let alone having to have a barrel made or scrounged, etc.
If you really want to try one, I'll bet somebody in a local club has one of the Winchester 94 Angle Eject guns that were made in the late 90s/early 2000s. Try one out if you don't believe me. You'll NOT find happiness in trying to make a 94 run short cartridges.
A 92 is what you are trying to build. Some are still being built off shore. See:
http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=257385
A Marlin 1894 or a 73 clone is the conventional approach for Cowboy shooting.
Good luck, GJ
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No, but when a hunter is having difficulty closing on game (like out West here), and might have to attempt a shot at challenging distances, the difference between a 2MOA load and a 4MOA load is often an extra 150 yards for a clean kill...
Accuracy never hurts. Even if one is a great hunter.
Good luck,GJ
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No, it won't. Haven't seen any such discounts on SASS memberships in 12 years (nothing like what many matches offer for spouses to sign up to shoot).
Good luck, GJ
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I have a Browning A-Bolt in 300 WSM. Since it is strictly a hunting rifle I always shoot it clean cold barrel and a follow up shot at the range. Let the barrel cool, swab it a couple of times and repeat the shooting sequence. A session at the range takes a very long time. I have not found a handload that works any better than a Winchester factory 180 grain. It took the better part of a year to figure this out.
So, depending on your intent, handloads may not be worth the effort.
I have no rifle for which I do not have one or more handloads that will consistently turn in better accuracy than the best available factory loads. Just depends if I want to work hard enough at it. If you want ultimate accuracy, it will be a load that is tuned to your rifle, not something the factory had good luck with in one or two of THEIR rifles.
Now, there are some real good factory loads. And perhaps one satisfies your needs in your rifle. But top rifle shooters almost always shoot hand loads. Even the rim fire experts are shooting a very tightly selected factory round, after comparing tens or hundreds of loads and lots.
The OP already stated that they were doing load development. Indicates they have probably already checked the rather limited factory loads available in 6.5x55 Swede.
Good luck, GJ
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If you are not real fast and fairly strong on the lever work, I'd go with a Cowboys and Indian 3rd generation kit, as it has a little more leverage than the shortest 5th gen kit,a little smoother and a little easier to fit. .45 Colt can use the slightly easier levering unless you are real fast. Your first time at putting a short stroke kit in yourself will be pretty challenging, but if you are mechanically inclined and have a few standard gun smith tools, should not be too hard to do.
Lifter and lever springs, a lever safety spring (torsion type mousetrap spring), probably a new extractor and firing pin with FP spring would be worth sticking in, too. Stainless magazine spring and follower. (Or at very least, clean mag tube well and check for rust). And think about a lighter carrier block - aluminum replacement or have your brass block milled out. Without lightening the carrier, you don't get but about half the speed improvement that a short stoke can give you.
I like 3rd gen kits in 45s, and 5th gen kits in 38s.
Now, all this will be $350+ just for parts. And will take about 15 hours to do,if all works well the first time. (that's why so many folks let a good smith do the work.... they can put in the same parts in about 3 hours)
Now, if I understand your post, you want a reference to a gunsmith to send it to to have this done. Either Jim Bowie at Cowboys and Indian store (So Cal), or Jared at LongHunter Supply (Amarillo Tx) would do a fine job dropping in the parts. Ken Griner (Farmington NM, who does work on Evil Roy's line of competition rifles) would also be on my list. Or Goatneck Clem out of central Texas, or Joe Brisco of Cowboy's Shooter Supply (Fort Towson OK)
Good luck, GJ
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At none of the 8 or so WRs and 10 EOTs that I have had the pleasure to have shot in, have these requirements been extended, within any posse I have been on or the posses I have Marshaled, beyond the folks holding the timers. Higher level officials at these matches have certainly been highly qualified.
There's what is applied on the field. And that is what matters to the good folks who have run the matches. Then there's - all the rest of the paperwork, which it seems does not really match reality...
Most of the confusion seems to stem from the loose, sometimes completely interchangeable, but sometimes differing, use of the terms "Chief Range Officer" and "Range Officer" within the RO I handbook. Then having the Match Contract, which most of us never see, citing "Range Officer" when it probably should be citing "Chief Range Officer" as requiring RO I and II certifications. For example, the (now no longer used) Stage Marshal position is called out as one of the "listed Range Officers" on page 11. Then in the description of his qualifications RO I states:
It is recommended each Stage Marshal be a graduate of the SASS RO courses
and for Posse Marshals
It is recommended all posse leaders be trained in this Basic Range Operations Course
These are the only 2 positions among the "listed Range Officers" which even hint there is a "recommendation" for RO I training in the whole RO I manual.
For another illustration of this mixed definition problem, here's a statement from the RO II handbook:
References in course material to "Range Officer" are generally meant to refer to those persons in official match positions with official duties (Posse Marshals/Leaders, Stage/Berm Marshals).
All in all, it shows the written materials are VERY poorly organized to have a consistent story on who MUST be trained to RO I and RO II levels.
Good luck, GJ
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At State and above matches, all Range Officers are to be RO-I certified by contract with SASS.
Match Director
Range Master
Posse Marshal
Deputy Posse Marshal
Timer Operator
Expediter
Score Keeper
Spotter
Loading/Unloading Officer
Believe you have BADLY misinterpreted the definition of "Range Officers" Most of those you have listed are not Range Officers as described in the Range Operations Basic Safety Course (RO I) handbook! The Range Officer (also known as Timer Operator (badly selling short all the responsibility)) is the role, along with the Match Director, that are (alternatively) either recommended or required to be at RO I level of certification for major matches.
As has been pointed out, you will not often have spotters who are all RO I level trained, let alone unloading table officers or scorekeepers. NOR do they need to be. The ones we have now
are doing a great job overall!Good luck, GJ
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No, all categories shoot .38's except for Classic Cowboy.
Clearer way of stating this -
Competitors in all cartridge categories (except Classic Cowboy) may shoot any of the allowed cartridge sizes. So, yes, if you shoot .38 special cartridge guns, you will have some of your competitors (in any category you might shoot) shooting anything from .32 H&R up through .45 Colt.
As has been stated before, Classic Cowboy is the only cartridge category where there is a tighter restriction on the cartridges allowed, where all that is allowed is a .40 caliber or above rimmed, historically used, cartridge. By the way, .38-40 is a .40 caliber cartridge.
Category is one of the harder things for a new shooter to wrap his head around. Come out to a few local matches and this topic (and lots of others) will be explained. Don't go buying guns before you come out to some local matches!
Good luck, GJ
Anybody know any custom Henry Big Boy gunsmiths?
in SASS Wire
Posted · Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
Single ACTION Shooting Society - it just takes action to shoot with us, not necessarily any guns when you start. The only pards missing out on "savoring," are the pards not coming out.
Good luck, GJ