Creeker, SASS #43022
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Posts posted by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Mount Whitney was one of my Dads favorite places.
We have many many pictures of Monkey Rock in various permutations or decor.
When my Dad passed after a long illness (brain cancer) that took the man that we knew away from us long before his body failed - it was on Mount Whitney that Desert Scorpion and I finally mourned.
Sitting on a large flat rock watching the water flow down the mountain broke something in both of us and we simply sat there; arms around each other and cried.
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Beyond that, Lone Pine is also home to a very cool movie museum that chronicles the hundreds (if not thousands) of movies and tv shows filmed in the surrounding area. (the Alabama hills) from Randolph Scott movies to Star Trek to Tremors to Iron Man.
A fair amount of western movie memorabilia including props, guns and leather - including the Dentist Wagon from Django.
Surrounding the Lone Pine area is (or was) also a fish hatchery that was being converted to a museum.
And nearby is a reminder of our failures in the treatment of our own citizens during wartime - the Japanese internment camp of Manzanar.
This is now a museum with a mixture of original buildings, reconstructions and history - our guide thru the camp was an elderly man of Japanese descent who had as a child been interred within this same camp.
I have rarely been as struck emotionally as I was that day being able to touch the history of that place, hearing the words of an adult man still haunted by the wounds of his childhood and what it represented - and the vigilance required to never allow that to occur again.
If the opportunity arises - I would recommend to every American a visit.
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Im a firm believer in multi tasking.
If you have a number of tasks that take X amount of time -
you can linearly stack those tasks individually and your time to completion is the SUM of each of those tasks
OR
you can attempt to complete some of those tasks concurrently getting you some "twoferone" deals in time spent.
People tend to think of transitions (in our game) as the movement between positions or the transition between one gun to the next.
But transitions can simply mean how efficiently you move shot to shot.
Draw 1st - draw 2nd - cock 1st - fire 1st - cock 2nd - fire 2nd
is less efficient than
Draw both - cock both - fire 1st - fire 2nd - cock both - fire 1st - fire 2nd
which is less efficient than
Draw both - cock both - fire 1st - fire 2nd (while cocking 1st) - fire 1st (while cocking 2nd)
Notice I said less efficient - not necessarily slower.
Efficiency is an objective measure.
Speed is wholly dependent upon the individual.
There are NUMEROUS shooters that are faster than others doing things in a less efficient manner.
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I have two Codymatics - I am nothing but pleased with the work AND customer service.
I have spoken directly to Cody everytime I have ever had cause to call him.
I have handled and shot nearly example of short stroke kits; cut and welds, 3rd, 4th and 5th gen kits.
Assembled and polished by many, many differing gunsmiths.
When everything is factored in; stroke, feel, turnaround and pricing - I have never regretted going with Cody.
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5 hours ago, Hells Comin said:
I think he's trying to say some of us have built in padding.
I'm attempting to lose some of my built in padding.
From a high of 360 at my worst down to 225 right before Covid back up to 290 and now back to 240.
Still got a ways to go to get down to 200.
But Ill feel pretty good about the padding situation if I do.
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I just wear my shotgun belt loose.
This drops my belt down lower (under my belly - instead of on my belly button).
Gives me plenty of room for my shotgun shell grab. While keeping my belt legal.
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31 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:
OKAY!!! Tell that to all those idiots tearing down and removing the statues and monuments that so many of US hold in high esteem!!
’Til then, I’ll call for the destruction and removal and defacing of their statues and monuments!!
I prefer not to be a hypocrite.
Justifying abhorrent behavior by stating "but they did it first" is juvenile.
You cannot be surprised or claim any moral high ground regarding someone attempting to strip you of your free speech, of your expression, of your rights when you demonstrate the exact same willingness to strip others of theirs.
ABSOLUTE PRINCIPLES are ABSOLUTE.
Not just pieces that should be subject to censorship or removal at the whim and opinion of whomever is in power.
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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:
So, with your logic - if I am shooting a plate rack, 6 knock downs, my first shot hits the frame and all the targets go down. I'm done with the plate rack and just dump the other loads? Not where I've been shooting. You shoot where the target(s) were at, then dump the extra rounds.
BS
When there are no knockdowns to engage with - the remaining rounds have to go somewhere.
In your example:
You fire ONE round - all the plates fall.
Attribute it to rack vibration, wind, earthquake or ghosts - the reason "why" does not matter.
If there is a dump plate.
EVERY single remaining round that fails to strike steel is a MISS.
If there is no dump plate - all the remaining rounds go into the back berm.
And NO one has any expectation that your going to aim, fire, then move your gun barrel laterally two inches to the next shot, aim and fire, again and again to simulate firing at each individual target.
The "shoot where it was" direction was actually created for shotgun targets:
1. To avoid shooters firing directly at an already downed target - thereby not damaging targets and creating misdirected splatter.
2. To provide for the safe directional discharge of loaded shotguns that satisfies round counts.
3. There is no guidance or requirement for how near the shell must pass "where it was"
It is also used in the event of fallen static targets to provide direction for safe discharge of rifle or pistol when rounds DO have a required sequence with specific rounds corresponding with specific targets.
But again, there is NO guidance for how closely the round must go to where the target once was.
The plate rack is downrange.
Firing safely downrange is satisfying the requirement of firing where the target once were.
Trying to assign misses is impossible if there is no target available to miss.
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Yeah - you gotta hate people and groups exercising that pesky First Admendment freedom...
Let's destroy their property and silence their free speech because we don't agree with it.
And then we should get highly indignant when they attempt to do the exact same thing to us.
Freedom is not solely for speech and behaviors you agree with.
Freedom is ugly - it is rife with offensive images, words and behaviors.
Freedom is covered with sharp, jagged edges that can cut and tear in both directions.
It is not obligated to nor limited by your feelings; and while some may choose "in polite society" to curtail their own freedoms - there is no reasonable expectation that everyone will be sanitized for your protection.
Freedom is either freedom "for all" or it doesn't exist.
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5 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:
One miss on target #4 and one miss for the target that wasn't engaged.
BS
How?
If there is NO target to engage - how can you punish them for not engaging?
There were only NINE targets available for engagement.
The shooter has TEN rounds to place down range.
The shooters ONLY requirement is to place NINE rounds on the NINE available targets and ONE round safely down range NOT striking any target and in the absence of a required sequence they may do so in any order.
At the end of the shooting string -
10 rounds discharged - 10 targets down.
You cannot call a miss.
At the end of the shooting string -
ALL targets were engaged.
The standing (available) targets were each obviously engaged by being struck by a rifle round.
The fallen (unavailable) target was engaged by the downrange cycling and discharge of the round that did not strike a target.
If you are going to counter with "I don't think he shot 'where it was' at the downed target - so thats not engaged"
Well...
"Engagement" per the handbooks, does not have an accuracy component.
Engagement does not even require a round to discharge.
Engagement is clearly defined and the shooters actions satisfy those conditions.
You cannot call a failure to engage.
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2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:
The SASS Handbook has a written rule. The shooter "should" shoot where it was.
The handbook does not link this to any penalty, not a miss, not a P, and not a SoG. There is only a "should."
Now the next shooter sees what went down above, and fully comprehends the stage instructions.
This shooter comes to the line and shoots 4 of the pistol targets, then knocks down 5 of the rifle targets before shooting the 5th pistol target(not going for the dump plate at all) before switching to rifle...
Then engaging the remaining 5 rifle targets before dumping 5 rounds into the berm...
Well, still no misses, not a P either. What I tried to create with this scenario is a SoG. On the assumption the rifle targets where easily engaged by pistol. Did I succeed?
On edit: Shooter intent is a factor discussed earlier. Hard to not see intent for my hypothetical next shooter.
Intent is clear - they intended to shoot rifle targets with their pistol.
But IF you really want to follow this down our hypothetical rabbit hole...
Spirit of the Game penalties ONLY apply to actions done intentionally /deliberately to gain an advantage.
I question how many would accept the premise that engaging rifle targets with pistol creates an advantage over shooters engaging rifle targets with the rifle?
And without that very specific component - SoG is not a valid penalty.
Just because "we" think someone should not do something; because "we" think it is wrong or because it doesn't look right does NOT make it illegal.
Our rules are not fluid or malleable.
In the absence of an appliciable rule - we cannot just apply a "just because" penalty or bend current rules to fit.
As stage writers - WE have to consider the opportunities we create by our instructions and target arrays and either modify our setups or create one time stage specific, situational rules to address these possibilities.
If WE fail to do so - that is on us; not the shooter who out thinks us.
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10 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:
If written that way, you'd want to make absolutely certain the rifle targets COULDN'T be hit with an errant pistol round.
I agree - not a big fan of (potentially) punishing the shooter for choices made during stage design.
Easy change would be setting targets with a complete offset - rifle array and pistol array not in line with each other.
Shoot pistols - move to 2nd position - shoot rifle.
OR
If the bays are not wide enough to provide for the offset array above and it HAS to be set rifle directly behind pistol.
Then an option is to provide a "just in case" target for the possibility of a rifle target falling.
If your rifle knockdowns are 6 inch rounds - set a static 6 inch round with the instruction - any rifle kd that is downed by anything other than rifle i.e. by wind, vibration or errant pistol round - those rounds are now designated to the static target.
This takes care of errant pistol round issues and the "shoot where it was" issues.
Requiring 10 shots/ 10 hits; regardless of whether kd or static target.
If you worry that they may game the situation anyways -
You can either warn them about the Spirit of the Game - and pull the trigger on it if it happens.
Or
you can require a target order on rifle and require they hit the static target "in order" with the knockdowns - meaning if rifle kd 4 and rifle kd 6 were downed by pistol - shooter would still have to engage targets in "order" with the static target replacing the downed targets.
example:
kd1, kd2, kd3, static target, kd5, static target, kd7, kd8, kd9, kd10.
But if you want MY stage thoughts?
Heres what I would do.
***** ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ
©
¤¤¤¤¤
* = Empty shotgun shells standing on a two by four board (5 to the side of the rifle knockdowns) if you screw a couple flat head screws into the board just shy of flush and just wide enough to push a shotgun shell between - this traps the rim (like an extractor). A round hitting the shell will knock it free but a hit on the board generally will not knock it off.
Ω = rifle knockdowns
© = static shotgun target/ plate, bell, etc.
¤ = pistol knockdowns.
At BEEP:
With pistols - engage the 5 pistol knockdowns and then any 5 rifle knockdowns as desired.
With rifle - engage ALL rifle knockdowns still standing.
Then shooter is to engage the shotgun shell targets with their remaining rounds.
Shooter MAY then (it is not required) engage the static shotgun target 1x for each still standing target to "erase" their misses (pistol kd, rifle kd or empty shotshell target) (a shooter with MORE than 6 standing targets only requires an engagement of 6 times to be considered clean) a shooter choosing to not engage the static target is assigned a miss penalty for each standing target remaining.
Now we have eliminated Spirit of the Game calls.
Eliminated "errant" pistol round issues.
And made a fun, yet challenging stage that still has the allowance for the shooter to be clean.
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3 hours ago, Chief Rick said:
Hope we were right.
There are 100's of opportunities to question an action or a result during a match.
There is no shame or issue with doing so.
Ever.
The only thing that matters is that we take every one of these opportunities - every one of these questions and hold them up against the stage instructions, the rulebook and the objective result of the shooters actions and do our very best to arrive at the correct answer.
Sometimes these answers seem easy and other times difficult - and sometimes a single word added or omitted can change the outcome.
But as stage writers, match directors, timer operators, spotters and posse members - our duty above everything is to advocate for the shooter and record the correct outcome.
You were correct to decide as you did during the match.
You were correct to bring it to the wire to ensure you were on the right path.
You did good.
And I would be thrilled if I were ever to get the chance to shoot with you and your club.
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4 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:
This is an old issue that will never get resolved with 100% agreement.
can you honestly say the shooter skipped from target 3 aimed at where target 10 was, jumped back to target 4, and finished the string?
Can YOU 100%, hand to God - absolutely positively guarantee they didn't?
"Benefit of a doubt goes to the shooter" is a basic founding tenet of this game.
Trying to interject "I think" and "I dont believe anyone would do it that way" into the scoring instead of simply analyzing the objective measurable result of the shooters actions is why 90% of these "Whats the call" threads exist.
We have all seen it - someone has an accidental discharge but still strikes the correct target; do we penalize them because they "should" have had a miss?
No. Because we score on objective results - not anyones opinion of what "should have happened".
When stage instructions allow; I have been known to shoot stages completely contrary to what everyone else on the posse did. And sometimes, just for giggles in a less efficient manner as well.
As long as it is within the rules; my or your "Opinion" of how someone should have or would have engaged the stage doesn't count for anything.
Only the objective measurable outcome from their actions.
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8 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:
Ok I'm confused OP states that instructions are "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets." Then states that shooter re-engage missed rifle target so how is it not at least a p for not engaging all rifle targets with their rifle?
OP is incorrectly using the term
"re-engaged"
10 rifle targets
1 down.
So only 9 targets available for engagement.
shooter engaged 3 kd targets.
fired a round that did not strike a target.
OP is presuming that round was aimed at target 4 (but there is no way to prove or disprove that).
Shooter continued on the knockdowns with target 4.
Without a target order - there is no specified or required correlation between round number and target number.
All we can verify is each STANDING target received a round.
The "downed" target had a round safely discharged downrange for it.
10 rounds expended - 10 targets down.
No misses - No p - No re-engagement.
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5 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:
The ONLY way to judge shooters intent is to ask them. If you don't ask the shooter why they did something then you cannot ASSUME their intent.
Had the TO asked the shooter "Did you reengage target 4 because you missed it?" If the shooter answered yes, then it would be a miss. If the shooter said no, round 4 was for the rifle target that was already down then the shooter does not get a miss.
Nope, absolutely not - we do not score hits or misses on shooters intent.
We score hits, misses or procedurals based on the results of their action - target was struck or the target was missed.
So we are going to ask the shooter did you mean to miss that one?
And when they say, "No, I missed it - but realized I had to miss one of them anyway - so I decided that one was as good as any".
You are going to penalize him for doing exactly the same as another shooter with the same options (that says they did it on purpose)?
The only time INTENT enters the discussion is when Spirit of the Game penalties arise.
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17 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:
The OP's statement clarifies this, I think. It reads:
The first three rounds knock down the first three targets.
Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot.
Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down and then knocks down the remaining targets.
we know that the shooter reengaged the fourth target again after missing it the first time.
No.
The OP is delivering their subjective opinion of what happened. The only person who KNOWS what they intended is the shooter and honestly - what they intended is immaterial to the call.
What WE actually know and can score on or potentially assign penalty on is the following.
The shooter had 10 pistol rounds to knockdown 5 pistol targets.
AND we know that misses on the PISTOL knockdowns do not count.
Shooter engaged pistol knockdowns - in the course of engaging pistol knockdowns; a PISTOL round struck and knocked down a RIFLE target.
Shooter completed the pistol knockdown string and placed remaining rounds on the pistol dump target.
Lets score this so far.
Misses on pistol knockdowns do not count.
All pistol knockdowns were down before transitioning to the dump.
Shooter had no misses on the dump plate.
So no miss penalty is present.
The pistol round that struck the RIFLE target is immaterial as for purposes of scoring - targets assigned to a specific type firearm DO NOT EXIST for any other type firearm. The pistol round striking a rifle plate is not a hit, nor a procedural as that target is "not present" - it is considered "air".
So no misses - no P for pistols.
So now rifle - there exists 10 RIFLE knockdowns with 10 RIFLE rounds to engage.
One RIFLE knockdown has fallen - in this case because of an errant pistol round; but the reason is immaterial (under other circumstances, it could have been wind, rack vibration or a host of reasons).
So having 9 available targets (with NO assigned order) and 10 rounds for engagement - we KNOW one round will be designated for "air".
The shooter struck three targets - 4th went to air and then completed the knockdown string.
There is NO definition of "shoot where it was" - a round safely discharged downrange from the proper firearm at an appropriate time in the shooting string is sufficient.
As there was no shooting order - the rifle round designated for air could be expended at ANYTIME in the rifle string.
10 rifle rounds expended - 10 knockdowns down.
No rifle misses - no p.
Clean shooter.
In THIS instance - the pistol round that struck and knocked down the rifle target was (assumedly) an accident.
I "could" see other penalties (SoG) being applicable IF the shooter were deliberately attempting to take down rifle targets by pistol for some form of advantage knowing they was no other penalty for doing so. But thats a different discussion.
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3 hours ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:
We prefer Sugar Maples!
I grew up in Michigan and spent a fair amount of time in your fair and beautiful Province.
Very seriously dated and considered marrying a lovely young lady from London, Ontario.
Fun memories of Windsor, Toronto and Niagra Falls.
Crisp fall air, majestic pines, the leaves changing color - epic scenery - a lot of positives to your area.
And after all that...
It is still INFINITELY better to live where palm trees grow.
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Language and word meanings migrate over time.
The assimilation of different cultures and accents - the use and modification of words originating from different languages.
If someone wishes to support the use of certain words or phrases - they may do so under the umbrella of communication.
The communication tenet elevates the understanding between the participants above the requirements of "proper" spelling, pronounciation and word origin.
In other words, all facets of word use are immaterial AS LONG as the speakers meaning is conveyed and understood by the message receiver.
This is a revered and long time component of evolving communication and there are many instances where calls have been made for certain letters and phrasing to be ceased as they were unneeded for valid communication.
Ax to ask is a valid comunication as the meaning is clear - but it is deliberate alteration to differentiate the common language of English between white and black speakers.
To say otherwise and raise the red herring of claiming "Ax" is being utilized as a deliberate reference to and return to a version of language and dialect unspoken for 400 years is ridiculous.
But I do appreciate and applaud the effort - being a wordsmith is challenging and the ability to find just enough factual information to use it as convincing and compelling basis for non factual is an accomplishment.
But Ax aint nuttin' but the bastard child of ask and attitude; jest birthed with a mumble on its lips and defiance in its eyes.
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7 hours ago, Pat Riot said:
Living near and working in LA I have heard variations of the name.
Most people just say “L.A.”, but when using the entire name it is “Loss-Anjellus”I have heard:
“Las Angle-eez”
”Loes Anjeleez”
”Laws Anjelus”
These last 3 are usually by people trying to come off as precocious, smarmy or uppity. They usually do not use those terms long as at some point they are put in their place or it dawns on them that people aren’t responding as they were hoping they would, like; slow service in restaurants and stores, roll eyes looks, etc.
My most common identifier for LA, besides “L.A.” was “The Giant Sh** Hole”. Oddly enough I never had to explain where I meant as long as I gestured in the direction of the city.
Yup - just like no one that lives in my city calls it Vegas.
But every tourist and vistor does.
I guess the same is likely true for
Diego
Frisco
The Big Apple
Hotlanta
Corpus
Nawlins
so on and so on
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Aint no way I want to light one of those off - plus I think you would be limited to (maybe) a 3 round cylinder.
Heavy recoil out of a J frame is no fun.
I've told this story before.
A few years ago I ordered a S&W 340 PD.
J frame 5 shot 357mag Scandium.
The revolver arrived at our shop and I decided I immediately had to try it out.
Well, as our gunshop deals nearly exclusively with used firearms - we are always getting in guns with loose rounds in the case, half empty boxes of ammo, etc.
These odds and ends get placed on a shelf in our back room and I eventually get around to shooting it up or giving it away.
So knowing I likely have some non inventory 357 ammo sitting around - I go in back and find a box of Winchster white box promo (Walmart) ammo and dump 5 rounds out.
I load up the Smith; let my Mom know I am heading out behind the shop to our testing berm and will be firing off some rounds.
Now 357 is not a joke round and Scandium is prety light; so I get a good grip and light off the first round.
BOOOM!!!
Ow, ow, ow - that thing kicked as hard as any handgun I have ever shot - felt a bit like my palm had just gotten slapped with a piece of rebar.
I look at my gun, look at my palm - and tell myself that I am over reacting; I must have had a poor grip - there aint NO WAY that thing kicked as badly as it just felt like it did.
I fire it again.
BOOOM!!!
Ow, ow, ow - yes it does kick just as badly as I thought it did the first time.
Now I am not a wimp - I am not in any way recoil adverse.
But I am already rethinking this purchase.
So I'm standing there - palm stinging and realizing I still have three rounds left.
I COULD simply unload it and go back inside the shop or I can finish off the cylinder...
BOOOM, BOOOM, BOOOM!!!
A deep breath and head back inside; shaking my hand like I had just petted an unfriendly porcupine.
My Mom loks at me and asks,
"What in the world was that? That thing was loud."
Now remember, this berm has been used for handguns of every caliber, rifles up to 458 Win mag, 12 gauge shotguns; and I don't recall my Mom ever questioning the noise level before.
I respond, "Just a 357 - but it kicks like a mule."
My Mom cocks her head a little bit and says, "Oh, 357? Joseph came by earlier and brought you a box of 357 - it's in a white box on the shelf."
Now a bit of background; my Moms house and the shop (separate buildings) share the same five acre lot in a joint residential - commercial area and Joseph was our nearest neighbor.
Joseph was also an avid handloader - thrilled to death to find himselves neighbors with a neighborhood gun shop.
And Joseph loved LOVED pushing rounds up and beyond accepted standards.
So I wander back into the backroom and pickup that white box of 357 - written on the bottom of the box...
"357 magnum 158grain - 2100 fps"
"Dan, only shoot this in your Rossi 92 - no handguns"
Shooting "standard" 357's in that J frame was pretty much nothing after that nasty introduction.
So after all that - a 500mag out of a J frame?
Now I kinda want one.
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52 minutes ago, Snakebite said:
Our club is not stuck in the 90s. It is stuck in the 70's, the 1870's and always will be.
Snakebite
So no 1887's, 1892's, 1894's or 1897's?
No safety glasses.
No hearing protection.
No 911 service.
No motor vehicles.
Dysentary, polio, needless amputations and incurable fever.
No antibiotics.
No heart meds.
No running water.
No air conditioning.
Sign me up for a big ol' slice of that.
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Looking in my back yard at palm trees - wondering why on earth anyone would live anywhere that DOESN'T have them.
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30 minutes ago, Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103 said:
Watery tart's getting serious!
And now we see the violence inherent in the system.
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I live in Nevada.
What is this "stop serving" thing you speak of?
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Music streaming without a smartphone
in SASS Wire Saloon
Posted
Contact Sirius and request their $5/ month deal.
I have Sirius in my Corvette and when I let it expire; they flooded me with "Sugn Up Again" offers.
Painted Lady's new car has a "trial" offer that we will let expire and then wait until she is getting the same $5 offers.
I listen to old rock, comedy, NASCAR and the NFL.
I love it for road trips and cities where I dont have terrestrial radio staions programmed.