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irish ike, SASS #43615

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Posts posted by irish ike, SASS #43615

  1. 12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

    Same for a conversion cylinder with multiple firing pins.

    The only thing with cap and ball is knowing which chamber wasn't loaded when starting to cap. Some shooters leave a nipple off and some mark/paint the nipple. The only safety issue is not capping a charged chamber and getting a chain fire!

    As to conversion cylinders its very hard to see the firing pin as you rotate the cylinder around to get to the one you can lower the hammer on. Most LTO's sort of look but you can't see it if its in shadow. So they accept you're saying it's good.

     

    I'm not trying to stir the pot or or be an abstinent clown here. I just don't see wording that says an LTO is mandatory. Once the clarification was made that a fellow shooter can check the loading for you the whole LTO thing sort of went out the window. This evolved into no one other than the shooter checking the loading of their guns.

  2. 2 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

    You forgot the qualification.  If it is hate speech it is not protected by the First Amendment.  Must be true.  The left defines what is hate speech and said this is covered by their defintion.

    The Supreme Court said that there is no such thing as hate speech. The liberals can't accept that.

  3. 48 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

    unicated to the Territorial Governors' respective clubs & subsequently saved in the Rule Clarification Archives)was posted on this thread regarding current SASS policy regarding oversight at the loading table.

    Pale Wolf, you of all people are the most respected and knowledgable person in regards to rules, clarifications and history. We all thank you for helping us. Reading the minutes it clarifies that in the absence of an LTO another shooter can be used to verify the loading procedure. Nothing was said about the LTO being required.

  4. 1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

    All they are checking for is to make sure that you don't have a cap under the hammer. It doesn't matter if there is powder and ball in the cylinder of not.

    How do they check to insure all 6 chambers aren't charged? They can't without looking at the cylinder face.

    I use conversion cylinders. I have tried to show LTO's that the hammer is down on an empty cylinder but they can't tell unless you can see that the firing pin is not extended out. I've had them want to take my pistol so they can see for themselves the hammer is on the firing pin in the down position. Thats just wrong.

  5. 30 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

    The expeditor is not and has never been a RO. It has always been an optional position.

    But it's listed as a position along with 11 other positions.  Where does it say its optional? It says large matches,,,,what is large?

  6. 22 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

    I know that many here don't like it and some don't believe it, one guy was even so rude as to make a cheap comment about some guy that use to be important... but the fact is

    The fact is; I'm the guy who made a factual comment about that certain shooter. I've been a member of that club for 20 years. And I have been a part of the Board for 14 years. At no time was the shooter you mentioned on the Board and "running" anything especially the show. He was a very important part of our club. Not just financially but also promoting our annual shoots and maintaining a presence in SASS at a higher level. If HPD used LTO's it was because we thought they were mandatory. We later learned that they aren't so we dropped them. It was a club decision.

     

    I've made a lot of comments about this. I'm upset because people keep saying 'well if so and so said its a rule, or if a committees said its a rule, and no one can change the rules other than... Yet no one can point me to any language that says it's a mandatory requirement. The only thing referenced is a long list o f positions and a description for the role of that position.

  7. 5 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

    But none of the re-wording or the last re-write changed any of the rules! Only a vote of the TGs or a mandate from the CEO can change the rules,

    Show me the rule.....An approved and issued Shooters Handbook is the thing we must abide by.

    The area in the SHB and RO1 books describe a bunch of positions and the roles for each. And I guarantee you all the matches do not provide all the positions listed. Otherwise we'd need berm marshals and expeditors at monthly shoots.

    The current RO1 book doesn't say anything about those positions being a mandatory requirement. It would depend on the size of the match. So they are discretionary.

  8. 8 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

    Two of those Match Directors are also on the ROC...two other ROC members were present at that meeting, as well as the SASS BoD.

    Show me the rule in one of the books. Someone  saying it's needed doesn't mean anything unless its in the shooters handbook as a requirement and it also clarifies penalties. No one has referenced an actual requirement other than a description for ht position in the rules.  

    per the TG minutes; In either case, a person MUST BE checking, as per our rules. A consensus was reached that what really matters is that the firearms are checked,

  9. Some more Mud. I shoot cap and ball. And for me to know which chamber doesn't have powder and ball in it before I cap I look at the cylinder face. And then cap accordingly. Is the LTO going to take my pistol, look at the cylinder face and then give me permission to to cap? NO.

  10. 1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

    Thank you Allie.  Some here have disrespected Snakebite, possibly without understanding his long history of involvement and contributions to our sport/game and its operational rules.  The rules we have today have had a long history of prior deliberation among some very experienced people.  When they talk, I tend to listen. 

    I'll listen to them also. But there is no rule listed yet. Just comments about the past rule books.

     

    So if a Possee shoots a stage with no LTO everyone gets a SDQ? Or just the Posse Marshal or MD?

  11. 1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

    I suppose the addition of the text "All positions must be filled in a SASS shoot" to the rules could end discussion.

    Theres a bunch of positions and responsibilities listed int the shooters handbook. Most aren't filled My example is expeditor.

  12. 3 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

    I was on Snakebite's posse at an annual match. He said it would be a SDQ for failure to follow loading or unloading procedures.

    How long ago was that? And again show me the rule. None of the 3 referenced shooters have come back with an actual rule. There's a description of the LTO's duty but no rule and consequences anywhere that I can find.

  13. 4 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

    I based that comment on earlier posts stating that PWB (spokesman for the ROC), Snakebite (former chair of the ROC), and the ROC have all said one is required.

    Allie, they can say anything they want all day. None of them can point to actual page or rule in the current shooters handbook. So there is no rule. Snakebites reference was to old version of the ROl which is no longer used.

  14. 22 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

    PaleWolf (spokesman for the ROC), Snakebite (former chairman of the ROC), and the ROC indicate (in no uncertain terms) that the LTO is required.

    Allie, no one can give a reference to an actual rule. The only thing I can find is a description for the duties of an LTO.

     

    Snakebite; This is from the ROI course before it was summarily re-written. The rules have NEVER been changed. Only two things can change them. A vote of the TGs or someone using their Power to do it. If the ROl course book was re-written then the rule was changed since ROC edited/revised it and then issued it as the new set of rules!

  15. On 9/17/2021 at 5:42 PM, Snakebite said:

    From the Original ROI  course:

    Posse Marshals cannot perform all of the Range Officer functions themselves, but must ensure Range Officer assignments are made and the rules and regulations are being followed

    You're referring to a rule that no longer is written this way. I asked and no one responded,,,,there is no ROl page 89 that you referred to.  I checked every handbook and RO book that SASS has their website! The only thing I can find is the description of the LTO's duties. No where I can find anything that says an LTO is required? They also list a description for an Expeditor that no one uses!

     

    Pale Wolf do you have  a reference location for a rule requiring an LTO?

    Thanks

    Ike 

  16. 18 hours ago, Snakebite said:

    PAGE 89 in the ROI pretty much makes it clear that there is a Loading Table Officer and what his/her duties are.  It has been "Clarified" to allow if a Loading table officer is not present that one of the shooters in line can act as the LTO

    No one has been able to actually point to or reference an actual rule that says LTO's are required!

    From the Shooters Handbook, UNIT 8: Match Positions & Roles. This section describes roles. And some may never be used at a match. As in expeditor. This isn't the section that says a LTO is required as a rule.

     

    I can't find a page 89 in ROI.....Am I looking at the wrong book?

  17. 12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

    LTO is applied differently from club to club. Blackjack Zak (MD at Winter Range) and Lassiter/Deuce (MDs at EOT) all agreed that t

    These are match directors for those events. It's not ROC or the TG's voting/reinforcing a rule. As MD's they can decide how their match is to run. But do they speak for all the clubs?

  18. 13 hours ago, Snakebite said:

    As for calling someone a Nazi ... I've heard ignorant people use that phrase against me before just because I know and try to enforce and play by the rules

    I didn't call you anything. I was referring to the posts in the past when the LTO thing came about. Many shooters came across LTO's that took their role way beyond what was was intended and called them Nazi's.

    Must use our loading strips

    Only one shooter can load at a time.

    You can't start loading until I say you can

    You will load you guns in this order.

    You can not holster your pistols until you're called to the line.

    That sort of "Nazi" stuff

    Using an LTO only insures you have one person in your way while you are trying to concentrate. It still doesn't eliminate the items of concern. You make the LTO get some penalties, responsibility for missed items, then sign me up.  But no one would do it.

    The organization went on for years before the LTO suggestion. What major safety infractions or accidents occurred on a large scale. None.

     

    The final thing is SASS allows "local clubs" to deviate from the rules all the time. Using LTO's is not a rule it's a suggestion. How can WB, Josey Wales, Outlaw, Tom Horn, unofficial categories allowed to be used if the SASS rules don't list them?  We just put on an annual match where Tom Horn shooters got to shoot 12 stages with big bore single or repeater rifles. Where are the SASS rules for that? What special safety precautions should be used?

    As to safety, with or without an LTO, and a major safety accident injured someone the attorneys would still be lining up.

  19. 12 hours ago, 45 Dragoon said:

     The posts look tall from that perspective but the safety slots retain their original size. I fit the posts to the slot to maintain as much hammer face as possible.

     

    Mike

    Can you send me a PM with the approximate cost, no engraving, for all of the action work? THnaks

    Ike

  20. 13 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

    I really don't care what you do, but it you won't do it at my match or at the Western Regional match... we play by the rules and require all shooters to be checked.   

    The "rules" don't require an LTO. Its more of a guideline!

  21. 31 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

    A competitor may never blame the Loading Officer for an incorrectly loaded firearm, and at no time will this claim be considered grounds for dismissal of penalties.

    Well, there ya go. I'm going to impose my will, but have no responsibility for what I do. Sounds like a politician!

  22. 33 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

    The High Plains Drifters use to require a LTO at the Western States Championship when Quick Cal was running things.

    HPD and Western States no longer exists. We are now the Battle Born Rangers. We are grateful that Cal invested his personal funds to build our range. But Cal never "ran" things. He shot with us. And because of his presence in SASS he was seen as some sort of celebrity figure in SASS. He was our MC for many years at our annual. And we thank him for that. He has since left SASS and is focused on Fast Draw.

    We, like a lot of clubs, thought the LTO was mandatory. We, like many others, discovered it wasn't.

     

    When we realized the LTO has absolutely no accountability for their actions at the LT. It was still on the shooter. We decided it was an unnecessary encumbrance. That and many of our shooters experienced LTO nazi's who wouldn't let anyone load unless he saw the entire process, slowing down the whole process. There were many posts about LTO's and how they thought they were in charge and everyone had to bend to the way they wanted things done.

     

    All the things you mentioned the LTO was supposed to do is mute. The LTO's mistakes were still on the shooter.  So why bother?

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